What you can learn about America on the deck of the USS 'Theodore Roosevelt.'

[Ray]

The U.S. Navy is unable to detect Chicom diesel submarines.

 

Oh boy, here we go again...

Yo, admiral! Where do you get this nonsense anyway? Have you been watching MSNBC again, or does this junk just come to you in a dream?

First, you claim that the Strait of Hormuz can be blocked by sinking a single ship in it.  Then you claim that the U.S. Navy has no capability to detect and clear mines. And now this pearl…

 

You’re only fooling yourself DT by pretending that you actually know anything about the military and the navy. I think you should stick to your assumed role of spelling bee monitor… 

[daytrader]

Ya know Ray..I'm quickly losing respect for your opinion.......Do you know what an Admiral does, Ray? Admiral Fallon is quoted below. 

3 incidents of a battle group being penetrated by diesel subs or a drone are noted in this post. 

- an Aussie sub penetrated a battle group in war games
- a Chicom sub penetrated the U.S.S. Kitty Hawk near Okinawa
- an Iranian drone likely videotaped an American carrier in the Persian Gulf


DayTrader


Admiral Fallon:
KUALA LUMPUR, Malaysia: A Chinese submarine came close to the USS Kitty Hawk carrier group in the Pacific Ocean last month, a top U.S. naval commander confirmed Tuesday, adding the encounter could have triggered an "unforeseen" incident.

yo, Ray...have you ever heard of "The Bedford Incident" ?  It could have happened...

The aircraft carrier and its supporting ships were conducting exercises in an unidentified location when the encounter occurred, Adm. William Fallon, the commander of U.S. Pacific Command, told reporters.

The carrier group was not engaged in anti-submarine exercises, but if it had, "and if this Chinese sub came in the middle of this, then it could have escalated into something that could have been very unforeseen," he said.

Yo,  Ray, the Admiral admits the battle group was "asleep at the wheel" near Okinowa.  What the hell was the ASW officer on the Kitty Hawk doing?  What was the submarine attached to the battle group doing?  Obviously not their jobs, that's for dang sure!

Associated Press is the source for Admiral Fallon's quotes:
http://www.iht.com/articles/ap/2006/11/14/asia/AS_GEN_Malaysia_US_Carrier_Incident.php

IRANIAN PENETRATION
Additional military sources, noting the Iranians broadcast video of one of our carriers in the Persian Gulf from an Iranian drone...Yo, Ray...see how vulnerable our battle groups are "close-in" the Persian Gulf?  Another example of a battle group asleep or outsmarted by our enemy. 



BACK TO THE CHICOM PENETRATION OF THE U.S.S. KITTY HAWK

This post deals with a lot of ASW news and how our ASW capability is deterioriating..
source:
http://formerspook.blogspot.com/2006/11/shadowland.html

The incident also underscores the difficulty in detecting and tracking modern diesel subs. Selected units within the Song-class are said to be as quiet as U.S. Los Angeles attack boats, and some of the Chinese subs may have been fitted with an advanced propulsion system and improved coatings that further reduce acoustic signatures.

Another source with excerpt below:
http://seekerblog.com/archives/20071117/chinese-submarine-suprises-uss-kitty-hawk-supercarrier/

I’m not sure why this penetration was surprising. The Song class diesel-electric subs are extremely quiet. As are the Australian Collins class subs. That is why the U.S. Navy exercises regularly with the Aussies [and why the U.S. supplies top of the line U.S. electronics to Australia - the only such nation to have access to the U.S. technology].

This post talks also mentions at least one Australian submarine has already successfully demonstrated just such a penetration capability during joint exercises.

Excerpt regarding the Kitty Hawk incident:

    American military chiefs have been left dumbstruck by an undetected Chinese submarine popping up at the heart of a recent Pacific exercise and close to the vast U.S.S. Kitty Hawk - a 1,000ft supercarrier with 4,500 personnel on board.

    By the time it surfaced the 160ft Song Class diesel-electric attack submarine is understood to have sailed within viable range for launching torpedoes or missiles at the carrier.

    According to senior Nato officials the incident caused consternation in the U.S. Navy.

    The Americans had no idea China’s fast-growing submarine fleet had reached such a level of sophistication, or that it posed such a threat.

    One Nato figure said the effect was “as big a shock as the Russians launching Sputnik” - a reference to the Soviet Union’s first orbiting satellite in 1957 which marked the start of the space age.

    The incident, which took place in the ocean between southern Japan and Taiwan, is a major embarrassment for the Pentagon…

[william3rd]

As he laboriously makes the final push to many-starred status and ultimate communion with the forum gods, he leaves no stone unturned to make himself seem even bigger than life yet not realizing that it is all for naught because the first rule of message boards from St. Yahoo himself- is- dont believe a word that the other posters say for verily they are all less than truthful. . . .

Besides, his lordship has never been on a ship at sea due to his dysfunction from college as discussed on another thread. Rectal fissure, wasnt it? From a lost weekend drinking with the frat brothers? Oh no, that war wound was from the anals of the other gasbag, Rush.

I am sure that there is some significance to all of this. But- I will have to ponder it another time perhaps in post 933. . . . .

[Ray]

Do you know what an Admiral does, Ray?

Yeah, we all know what "admiral" daytrader does. He blows smoke out of his arse... LOL!

You go ahead and keep trying to back up your absurd nonsense with more idiotic remarks while I sit here laughing my arse off.

Instead of ever admitting that you were wrong, you will forever try to spin your way out of your ignorance by frantically searching the Web for some more irrelevant quotes in a futile and pathetic attempt to give yourself credibility that just isn't there.

Back to your spelling bees admiral...  

[Ray]

Stop it William!

You're going to make me split a gut!   

[daytrader]

http://www.youngwriterssociety.com/ywsblog/wp-content/uploads/2007/09/hear-no-evil.jpg

who is going to join Ray & WmIII to make it 3 fools?

DayTrader

[daytrader]

....from the Navy Times.....  11/13/2006
source:
http://www.navytimes.com/legacy/new/1-292925-2353581.php

DayTrader  ...torpedoing Liberal Stupidity, whether on Land, Sea, Air or Internet...

Navy confirms Chinese sub spotted near carrier

By Philip Creed
Staff writer

The Navy did spot a Chinese submarine near the Kitty Hawk Carrier Strike Group last month in the East China Sea, the Navy said Monday afternoon, verifying parts of a Monday morning article in The Washington Times that said a Chinese submarine had come within firing range of the aircraft carrier Kitty Hawk on Oct. 26.

While conducting operations, a Chinese navy Song-class submarine was sighted near the strike group by a U.S. Navy aircraft, said Navy spokesman Lt. Sarah Self-Kyler, who would say only that the incident occurred in late October near Okinawa, Japan.

Both ships were operating in international waters at the time, Self-Kyler said, and there was no communicatio between the submarine and any U.S. Navy vessels after the sub was spotted. The Kitty Hawk group was conducting routine carrier training at the time of the incident, Self-Kyler said, adding that the strike group was not conducting anti-submarine warfare operations during the exercise.

The Washington Times report claimed that the submarine shadowed Kitty Hawk, surfacing within five miles of the carrier before it was finally spotted by an aircraft.

Self-Kyler would confirm only that the sub was in close proximity of the strike group and could not say how long the submarine remained on the surface after being spotted.

News of the submarine spotting comes as Pacific Fleet Commander Adm. Gary Roughead is visiting China to meet with civilian and military leaders. Roughead arrived Sunday for the weeklong visit, which includes a visit to the amphibious transport dock Juneau during a joint search-and-rescue exercise with the People's Liberation Army Navy, according to a Navy release.

According to an Associated Press report, Roughead really would like to know what the intent is in some of the developments he's seen in the navy of the People's Liberation Army. A Pacific Fleet spokesman would not comment Monday afternoon whether the sub incident would be among the subjects discussed by Roughead.

Kitty Hawk and a number of 7th Fleet ships are currently taking part in the AnnualEx 18G, the largest annual bilateral exercise between the Navy and Japan's Maritime Self-Defense Force, according to the Navy.

The Kitty Hawk departed its home port of Yokosuka, Japan, on Oct. 17 for a fall deployment.

[Ray]

Round and round he goes. Where he stops nobody knows...

As the spinmeister frantically searches the Web in search of validation, he only buries himself deeper and deeper in his own mental excrement.

Stay tuned folks, more nonsense from admiral daytrader, aka admiral google, sure to come... 

[daytrader]

According to Pentagon and Navy officials, five small patrol boats belonging to Iran’s Islamic Revolutionary Guards Corps charged a three-ship Navy convoy, maneuvering around and between an American destroyer, cruiser and frigate during a tense half-hour encounter. The location was where the narrow Strait of Hormuz meets the open waters of the Persian Gulf — the same choke point chosen by General Van Riper for his attack.


Well, the military has done an expensive military game back 2002....guess what? 

DayTrader

the Blue Team navy, representing the United States, lost 16 major warships — an aircraft carrier, cruisers and amphibious vessels — when they were sunk to the bottom of the Persian Gulf in an attack that included swarming tactics by enemy speedboats.

“The sheer numbers involved overloaded their ability, both mentally and electronically, to handle the attack,” said Lt. Gen. Paul K. Van Riper, a retired Marine Corps officer who served in the war game as commander of a Red Team force representing an unnamed Persian Gulf military. “The whole thing was over in 5, maybe 10 minutes.”

source:
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/01/12/washington/12navy.htm?_r=1&oref=slogin

[Ray]

I see that now Admiral Google is getting desperate and has even resorted to quoting the leftist New York Times. What's next?

Yo admiral, How about some quotes from your pal Ahmadinejad to back up your silly nonsense? 

[Dave H]

Can't we all just get along? We are on the same side!

Now let's kiss and make up...






Now isn't that better?





ROFLMAOCUMMFLTINSAOTB!!!

Dave H.

[Dave H]

It' starting to get boring. The truce is over...Let's get ready to rumble!!!

[daytrader]

Great photos Dave, especially the last one!  Bush just ordered two battle groups over to buzz Iran..I wish he would stop rattling the sabre and DO something.  Did you hear that Syria has/will have the Bomb soon?  What the heck are we waiting for?  We should do to Assad what Syria has been doing to the "Cedar Revolution" in Lebanon (assassinating their leaders).  If Likud ran the Israeli government it probably would already be done.   

Hey Dave, when you are not busy, please find some intelligent lifeforms that can contribute some intelligent comments to this thread....they ALL can't be working for Reverend Wright or Hillary!    LOL


DayTrader    ...torpedoing Liberal Stupidity, whether on Land, Sea, Air or Internet...

[jm21-2]

DT,

It's so refreshing to read your posts after listening to all the whiners on the OCS candidate board I read. They are such a bunch of worry-warts. They don't have the knowledge you do, that we have unlimited troops and resources. If only more people had your knowledge, we'd be toppling Iran, North Korea, and maybe Syria for kicks!

I mean, there are threads on there complaining about how even though the Army lowered their physical standards and upped the age limit to 42, last year they let in 106 people convicted of burglary, 28 of robbery (including armed robbery), a bunch of grand larceny convictions, GTA convictions, etc....then they even complain about reports that say "In 2003 there were just 16 incidents of gang members in the U.S. Armed Forces, while in 2006 the total was 10,309." I mean, there haven't been THAT many gang-related killings in the Army yet, and who really cares if they're taking machine guns and explosives when they leave and either using them on the street or selling them to gang members? OK, so a few took rocket launchers, big deal. The Army's meeting their recruitment goals just fine!
http://www.stripes.com/07/feb07/gangs/ncis_gangs.pdf
http://news.ncmonline.com/news/view_article.html?article_id=242c30e05913a8b642b8f57ee7859d5a

Then some guy who's a cop gets worried about news reports like this
http://www.youtube.com/v/dgwfVJIoBNM&hl=en
I mean, c'mon, don't be a pussy. He was whining about an ex-marine almost killing some of his officer buddies with a desert eagle...whoop dee doo. Part of their job, right?

[daytrader]

DT,

It's so refreshing to read your posts after listening to all the whiners on the OCS candidate board I read. They are such a bunch of worry-warts. They don't have the knowledge you do, that we have unlimited troops and resources. If only more people had your knowledge, we'd be toppling Iran, North Korea, and maybe Syria for kicks!

see what I mean Dave?  We've got a Perry Mason Jr. that hasn't even tried a case yet. 

What's sad and (sort of) funny is a major computer manufacturer fired their call center in India and moved it to to Texas...they can't find qualified employees to answer phone calls!  People that make 5% of what we make here are more qualified and educated than Amerikans that pass through public edukation.  Amerika is dumbed down or overrun by illegals, take your pick!

DayTrader    ...torpedoing Liberal Stupidity, whether on Land, Sea, Air or Internet..

================================================================

Even CBS News shows this Perry Mason Jr that he's not ready for court action....

source:
http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1208870528625&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull

The Pentagon has ordered military commanders to develop new options for attacking Iran, CBS reported Tuesday, as a second US aircraft carrier steamed into the Persian Gulf.


According to the report, the planning was being driven by what one officer called the "increasingly hostile role" Iran is playing in Iraq - smuggling weapons into Iraq for use against American troops.

Secretary of Defense Robert Gates said that "what the Iranians are doing is killing American servicemen and -women inside Iraq."

CBS said that US officials were also concerned by Iranian harassment of US ships in the Persian Gulf as well as Iran's still growing nuclear program. The television channel cited new pictures of Iran's uranium enrichment plant which showed the country's defense minister in the background, in an apparent deliberate attempt to mock the recent New Intelligence Estimate which said Iran had ceased work on a nuclear weapon.

Last week, Joint Chiefs of Staff Mike Mullen warned Iran not to assume the US military can't strike.

Targets would include everything from the plants where weapons are made to the headquarters of the organization known as the Quds Force which directs operations in Iraq, CBS reported. Later this week Iraqi Prime Minister Nouri al-Maliki is expected to confront the Iranians with evidence of their involvement in fueling the Iraq insurgency and demand a halt.

If that doesn't produce results, continued the report, the State Department has begun drafting an ultimatum that would tell the Iranians to cease their activities - or else.

Gates said Tuesday that sending a second US aircraft carrier to the Persian Gulf could serve as a "reminder" to Iran, but he said it's not an escalation of force.

[william3rd]

*sigh* to think I took him off ignore to read this claptrap. . . .

63 more posts and he can get a life!!!!

[daytrader]

If you build it, some idiot will break it.  .yes it is fly by wire, but it is not a stealth plane (it does generate a radar signature)...in a mock dogfight - one Euro Fighter can outclass 2 F-15's though.


Of course, the occurrences of dogfights between two state of the art air forces happens once every how many years?  Let's see...Korea...Vietnam....6 Day War (Israel), Yom Kippur....any more?  Syria and Egypt get state of the art Russian planes but Israel still shoots them down...

Why not build 13 ten million dollar stealth planes?  Composite materials only cost that much because some government agency is willing to pay that much for it.  After all, it's not THEIR money.

DayTrader

Royal Air Force top gun crash-landed a new $136.3 million Typhoon fighter — apparently after forgetting to put the wheels down during a training exercise in California.

The state-of-the-art jet was badly damaged as it skidded along a runway on its belly at 130 mph.

source:
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,353665,00.html

[daytrader]

...this begs the question...why not build "lower-tech" but more rugged slow-flight aircraft that have anti-aircraft fire suppression or have dedicated escorts (example:  P-51's (fire-suppression escorts) defending B-17's (helicopters) over Europe...duh!)

DayTrader

Barnett: Buying wings but operating rotors
By Thomas P.M. Barnett
Sunday, May 11, 2008

If I told you that improvised explosive devices (IEDs) were the leading cause of U.S. casualties in Iraq, you'd expect the Pentagon would have mounted a major R&D effort to defeat this threat. And you'd be right.

If I told you that helicopter crashes and shoot-downs were the leading cause of U.S. casualties in Afghanistan, you'd expect the Pentagon would have mounted a major R&D to defeat that threat as well. But you'd be wrong.

Helicopter losses are the No. 1 cause of U.S. casualties in high-altitude, mountainous Afghanistan and the third leading cause in Iraq. Yet Pentagon R&D spending on tactical aircraft dwarfs the amount spent on rotor craft. In recent years, the total budgeted R&D for helicopters was $2 billion to $3 billion, roughly half of what the Defense Department spends on just one new tactical aircraft and one-quarter of its R&D on missile defense.

Doesn't that sound out of whack? Spending so much on low-probability future scenarios and so little on today's real-world operations?

This is the reality of U.S. defense spending going all the way back to the fall of the Berlin Wall: we buy one military, and we use another. We buy plenty of super-expensive tactical aircraft for "big war" scenarios and spend frighteningly little on helicopters that are - beyond all doubt - the "long pole in the tent" of small wars, crisis responses, humanitarian relief operations and counterinsurgency campaigns.

You read up on any Western intervention in a failed state today, such as Sudan's Darfur region, and you'll hear the same complaint: There simply aren't enough helicopters, especially ones capable of operating in the harshest and highest environments.

Meanwhile, let me tell you a dirty little secret of the "tacair" community: the last Air Force pilot ever involved in a real dogfight is coming up on his second star, meaning he's a general long out of the cockpit. The same is true for the last naval aviator ever involved in a dogfight. The operational reality is that nobody flies against our tactical aircraft anymore unless they're simply trying to get away from the fight - faster!

Tactical aircraft losses in Iraq and Afghanistan are negligible. We've lost several-fold more troops in friendly fire incidents, and boy, have we ever spent some serious bucks to reduce that problem - as we should.

Here's the long-term trend we need to correct: Back in the Vietnam era, our Marines were losing one tactical aircraft every 1,000 sorties, or individual missions. That loss rate was considered unacceptable, so R&D spending was increased to reduce those numbers. The Marine Corps was hugely successful in that effort. In Operation Iraqi Freedom, our loss rate plummeted to one tactical aircraft lost per every 26,000 sorties.

Contrast this impressive improvement in platform survivability with what's happened in Marine Corps rotor craft over the same time frame. In Vietnam, the Marines lost a helicopter once every 6,000 sorties. In Iraq, their loss rate jumped to one every 1,500 sorties. That is a four-fold increase in rotor-craft losses compared to a 26-fold decrease in tactical aircraft losses.

With this spending record, it's clear that you'd be a lot safer spending your military aviation career as a fighter pilot than a helicopter pilot - counterintuitive but true.
The U.S. military emerged from Vietnam with an understanding that tactical aircraft were vulnerable, so it researched those vulnerabilities and fixed them across the 1980s and 1990s, yielding an attack capability without peer in the world. The same effort could and should be pursued by the Pentagon today as it looks ahead to a long war against radical extremism that will see U.S. troops put in harm's way - time and time again - in environments like Afghanistan and Iraq.

Why do we keep buying one military and operating another, running the latter into the ground with such lengthy, high-tempo operations? The "big war" crowd continues to dominate the acquisition community inside both the Pentagon and the defense industry. Both sides want the same thing: huge and expensive platforms that come with magnificently loaded maintenance contracts.

Responding to today's wars is messy and complicated, while planning for tomorrow's brilliant high-tech space wars against China is so much more fulfilling - at least in a budgetary sense.

Too bad, because the Pentagon's penchant to plan for all possible contingencies - the very absence of grand strategy - is costing the lives of American troops every day in this long war.

Thomas P.M. Barnett is a distinguished strategist at the Oak Ridge Center for Advanced Studies and senior managing director of Enterra Solutions LLC. Contact him at tom@thomaspmbarnett.com.