A Different Destination for a change - Ukraine

[fathertime]

I still feel funny with the thought of using agencies.   If I meet a person that I really like, I doubt I am going to point to my name badge and say the teacher is telling me it is time to go.   On the other hand, I am going to see very much in a very short period of time ... I don't think that would be possible otherwise.

 

Zonnyberto!



Ya know sometimes you just have to feel a little funny I guess...not a big deal, use the agencies and get what you can out of the experience.

Keep your wits about you, and be a little careful!


Fathertime! 

[Zon]

You are going to Zap?

Better stay grounded!!!!

Isn't that the sister city of Pow!

That made me laugh out load!

[Zon]

===  I am active on the sister site (although I have a different name and better reputation).   Some of the member's there have known me for years.  One asked me if I was REALLY looking for a wife.  It made me think.  Here is my answer. It has just as much application here as there  ===

Quote
Do you really want a wife?

Interesting question, I/O!

I AM happy in bachelorhood. I am not one of those guys running around NEEDING to be married in order to cope with life.    I do believe the institution of marriage is seen as a "cure all" to many people when IN FACT it is NOT.  Marriage is ALWAYS Good and Bad and Hard - as is life itself.  It's greatest reward may be in longevity and consistency ...  when two people can look back on life in dignity and together know / recollect sharing life's intimate experiences.  This can be a special proof of human loyalty.  I do believe that too few people are happily married in the LONG RUN, which is to say a very successful marriage is a rare thing, very much so!  (I think 10 out of 100).  If it were not for "having children" I do not think marriage is absolutely necessary, or even good for most people. (what is wrong with being "friends")

Having said that ...

I am not a selfish person and am very able to live with a woman I love and be constantly supportive and attentive.  Under the right circumstances, this, in and of itself, is very fulfilling.   I do believe the right woman could make me a better man.  And,  lastly, I do believe that a woman has gifts in the art of living that I as a bachelor simple do not possess.  For example, I do not know or care if it is a Monday, or Friday, or Sunday.  I do not know, or care, if it is a holiday.   Every day is OK.  Some days are better than others.   But, the right woman has the ability to make simple things matter in life.  That is the unique gift of the feminine - creating a warm and cozy home and life style.

When you are a man with choices, the trick may well be to find contentment in your choice.  I know many single men who seem incapable of this.  I am not one of them.

So, I am OPEN and MOTIVATED by the prospects of marriage at this time.  HOWEVER, I am not in love with the idea of marriage first, and wanting to caste a suitable woman  in that place, second.  Rather, it would take the right woman to move me to desire to enter into marriage.  AND, I think in the best of cases, it is something I would want completely without compromise, not partially with reservations.   In other words, I do not think marriage is something you "talk" yourself into, or create a column of pros on one side, and cons on the second.  It should be something that is natural and intuitive - something that is so obvious to the two involved that any other options seems foreign and strange.

(Maybe I am too idealistic?  But, this is a good place from which to start.  And, remember I am a man who has eaten too much chocolate.  There is a limit to everything.)

[aconcepts]

Great post.


My goal is to not only get what what I want but more importantly be happy with it...


Like the old saying goes... watch out what your wish for you might get it.


I am a motivated and assertive person that loves to work and getting things, that is manifesting the physical equivalent of my desires is very achievable for me.


What I have learned from manifesting many of them is that when they appear after a while they become baggage that hinders freedom.


Like material things etc and women that turn out to be bad company.


I can basically have most any material things I want but know find that i don't want them. Just more crap to take care of.


If I ma going to tend something it will be a garden as that to me really represents the circle of life and is satisfying and soulful.


There are other ways to engage in life if the right person that Zon so elequently described does not appear.


Regarding manifesting that person:


you really have to know exactly what you want and never focus on what you don't want.


Manifesting mates is extremely difficult because we are all multifaceted.


Its much easier manifesting a business partner or material object rather than a long term mate.


Regarding my tastes: I have had a lot of gorgeous women in and out of my life and am firmly convinced that the most attractive to me is the simple girl next door type. Not overly educated and not a professional but a grounded well rounded secure woman. Secure meaning that she has no desire to compete as a man. She loves home making and children, and many of you guys and gals are thinking oh he wants a whimpy woman he can control. I hate controlling people. takes away my freedom.


I want a woman that is secure in her importance as the most important thing to me that there is in this world. A just woman that wants to love and nurture her children and husband. What is more important than that.

[Zon]

Nice ... I think I will take up gardening:)

[Zon]

WHY WOULD A RUSSIAN ( COLOMBIAN ) WOMAN WANT AN "AVERAGE AMERICAN GUY?

===  My response from a different board (thought it relevant)

Here is my thinking for what it is worth: The problem - and it is a BIG one; and will not go away if you transplant a woman from a 2nd or 3rd world county into a 1st world country - is that of perspectives and community value /standards.
[/size]Start out with this fact:  The value of being a man in first world countries (USA, UK, Norway, etc..) is lower - FAR LOWER - than the value of being a man in Colombia, Ukraine, Slovakia, Romania, etc...
[/size]
Add this fact: Most women in first world countries, those with the maximum amount of choice, do not NEED or WANT a man in the same way as women from first world countries did 50 years ago, and the way women from second and third world countries do today.  Any woman can earn a living (resources)  Any woman can call 911 (security).  That sort of pulls the rug out of the value proposition of "being a man".

[/size]So, when you say "Average Man," you are already buying into the image of the 1st world value of being a man.   
[/size]
Take for example the men in Colombia, or here in Ukraine.   Most men in these countries are ugly as $hit, to be honest.   Another example is manners.   The men in Colombia, 99% of the time, are cheaters and few have the potential to be successful in this life.  It is not uncommon to see a man hit a girl.  (I even saw a man slap his girlfriend in Bratislava, and nobody said a thing)  I do not know enough about Ukrainian men, but it does not appear that they put women on a pedestal either.

What is an "Above Average / Good Man" to THESE women? [/font]
 
But that only identifies the real problem!  NOW THEN, to take one Perspective/Community Standard - Colombia / Ukraine - and mix it with a different Perspective/ Community Standard - USA - THAT is where the trouble starts, perhaps irreconcilably so in most cases.
[/size]
So, IF YOU ARE A MAN that is going to travel, meet and marry a woman with less than 90 days real face time with her; and then, ship her to the USA - and IF YOU WANT TO LIVE IN A LOW RISK WORLD -  you probably want to stay close to the perspective and community standards of the USA.  You probably should find a woman 3 - 5 years younger / older, and in your own league, more or less (THIS IS LESS AN ISSUE WITH WOMEN OVER 35 IMO). Which means that most men should not marry a beauty queen.  But, it is possible to find a good, attractive women, with strong traditional values - and there is MUCH to be said for that!  Or, there is Match.com LOL=== 
[/size]When I first moved to Colombia, I met an American who had been travelling there for 11 years.  He was married to THREE Colombianas in 10 years (one ended up being a model for Playboy).  This man is 2 years older than myself, so we are talking about a "normal" guy who is in his 40's with only an  above average / mediocre American job, dating and marrying Playboy models.  Those relationships were real.  The women have loved him, and he respected and cared for them too.  (These were not scam marriages for the purpose of green card.)    The marital problems did not begin until the women moved to the USA; and even then, the problems took years to grow.  BUT THEY GREW.   Nowadays, he prefers to live in Colombia, and visit the USA. ===

[InnocentVixen]

When I first moved to Colombia, I met an American who had been travelling there for 11 years.  He was married to THREE Colombianas in 10 years (one ended up being a model for Playboy).  This man is 2 years older than myself, so we are talking about a "normal" guy who is in his 40's with only an  above average / mediocre American job, dating and marrying Playboy models.  Those relationships were real.  The women have loved him, and he respected and cared for them too.  (These were not scam marriages for the purpose of green card.)    The marital problems did not begin until the women moved to the USA; and even then, the problems took years to grow.  BUT THEY GREW.   Nowadays, he prefers to live in Colombia, and visit the USA.

I do not doubt the love, respect and care in that man's relationships or if they were real, but let's be honest, a woman that doesn't mind stripping herself naked for the world to see will have trouble with marriage regardless of where she is, back in her country she might not have had the opportunity to become a playboy model but her morals being at those standards I can bet you she would have ended up being a prepago or some mafioso's lover had she not had the gringo option, the reason it took years to happen it was probably related to her maturity level and the fact that she realized marriage was not for her after she gave that step.

Just a wild guess from a traditional female point of view, he might pick the same type of woman and ending up with the same results, hence his 3 failed marriages.

It's very interesting to hear about other countries, looking forward to your next trip report.

[fathertime]

When I first moved to Colombia, I met an American who had been travelling there for 11 years.  He was married to THREE Colombianas in 10 years (one ended up being a model for Playboy).  This man is 2 years older than myself, so we are talking about a "normal" guy who is in his 40's with only an  above average / mediocre American job, dating and marrying Playboy models.  Those relationships were real.  The women have loved him, and he respected and cared for them too.  (These were not scam marriages for the purpose of green card.)    The marital problems did not begin until the women moved to the USA; and even then, the problems took years to grow.  BUT THEY GREW.   Nowadays, he prefers to live in Colombia, and visit the USA. ===

You seem to be implying here that something about moving to the USA is what suddenly turned this man and his 3 marriages sour.   If that is what you are implying I believe you are mistaken.   I'd bet the man was more responsible than the country he lived in.  He was probably unfit in some way to take on the responsibility of being at least a reasonably good husband.  Who knows, he may well be very happy with what he did in those 10 years and is only now lamenting it to gain sympathy. 

It is not often said that it is always a bed of roses with an international marriage, but it often is, and I've found the rewards to be worth it.  I think that many men are not able to negotiate the challenging path and muck it up at some point, which also includes not recognizing that they are choosing an unfit wife. 

If you have the option of living in the woman's home country and that is what you want to do, then that is what you should do.  Maybe it would be a better fit for you and what you bring to the table.

Fathertime!   

[aconcepts]

Nicely put FT/ I have designed relationships to fail because I did not want to be ties down and knew these women were in love with me and great marriage material. But my level of personal honesty was much lower in my twenties and early thirties. Pretty much all little head mentality. I guess when you are young, handsome and successful you lose perspective about what is important. I did. I did not value relationships like I do now. I mean all relationships.

[SkyNorth]

Zon...Do you have any new impressions on the ladies of Kiev now that you have dated a couple?

[Zon]

I understand you position, FT.  And, it is correct and it is working for you.  My example does show how different things can be based upon LOCATION, and the different community standards and values of that LOCATION.   

Here, we can only speak in generalities.  Useful, but limited.

===

I will be in a position to comment more intelligently on GENERAL comparisons between women in Colombia versus women in Ukraine in a week - maybe two.  There is much to observe and learn.  (I already had two situations sort of "blow up" in my face ... but, I am working on them:)

[Researcher]

      I went out with a Russian woman a few times. She was very pretty and sweet. I had always heard how women from that part of the planet were cold and "soul less". The one I went out with didn't fit that mold. I always wondered how much truth to that stereotype there was or was it just an impression many people got from first impressions. Seems to be the way stereotypes come about.



       Researcher

[fathertime]

      I went out with a Russian woman a few times. She was very pretty and sweet. I had always heard how women from that part of the planet were cold and "soul less". The one I went out with didn't fit that mold. I always wondered how much truth to that stereotype there was or was it just an impression many people got from first impressions. Seems to be the way stereotypes come about.



       Researcher

precisely my experience too!

I understand you position, FT.  And, it is correct and it is working for you.  My example does show how different things can be based upon LOCATION, and the different community standards and values of that LOCATION.   

Righty-o,


Good hunting zonnybertis,
Fathertime! 

[Jeff S]

I think it comes from the cultural tendency for Eastern Europeans (also western Asians and Africans also) to not smile much. They think we Americans (and Latinos and eastern Asians) look foolish grinning all the time. It conveys a coldness but has nothing to do with actual feelings, but rather cultural norms.

[clarkkentinbc]

I read all of your posts on this thread and its interesting to see how your conclusion's are way off base about the Ukraine.

You talk about the Ukraine as a possible change, something different than latin america... well your right it is so different it is like being on another planet. The culture there is so vastly different than latin america it is almost like opposite poles.

It is very difficult to find a good woman there that is not messed up emotionally. They are amazing women for the first little while but the vast majority of them go seriously sideways in the end. Latinas are passionate... Ukrainian women are emotional... There is a a huge difference. They are raised with a very loose set of morals when it comes to honesty. It is a country wide thing not a local thing. The average Ukranian woman will think nothing of scamming you. The vast majority of them are raised to take what they want... and if you have to lie or con in order to do it then that is considered ok. They are very subtle about it to. They will milk you over an extended period of time and think nothing of it.

They can be exeptionally good liers due to their common history of having to hide things while they were a communist country. It is a cultural norm there. The economic downturn has seriously increased the level of hardship in the Ukraine the last few years. In turn this has also increased the level of desperation/dispare/need on the part of the Ukrainian woman. This translates into they have to do whatever it takes to survive. You do the math...

So buyer beware. There are a lot of really good women there that can be found if your willing to be carefull, take your time and not ever ignore red flags. If your only into the really really hot looking women... your in for quite the ride. Looks like that in the Ukraine translate into a living... It is almost considered a commodity there. Trust me they know how to trade on it. Combine those kinds of looks with their inate sense for telling exceptional lies and being able to hide things.you have the basic formula for a giant disaster.

You cannot show up there as a timid manfrom North America. They will eat you alive. In their culture a man takes what he wants. He dosn't ask he tells you. So if you show up insecure and needy like most North American men. Your basically screwed from the get go. I know this all sounds a bit harsh but I have seen many men fall to these women. I have dated these women. I have friends who married women from the Ukraine. My dad was born in the Ukraine and I have family in the Ukraine so believe me when I say that you need to be careful. It is not uncommon for the whole family to sit around and discuss how their daughter is going to milk you for more money or things. I have seen mothers encouraging their daughters to do it. they love that your weak... it makes their job so much easier.

Zon,

your gunna fit right in there. With your loose morals(non traditional values) when it comes to women, you will have an endless supply of takers. I agree with Innocentvixen if you hang with a woman who sheds her clothes for a living in whatever degree... she is not long term matterial and in almost 100% of the cases will be emotionally messed up and incapable of commiting long term. There are so many women that will give you what you want there for some meals, hotel stays and maybe some gifts here and there.

Jeff, you comment on their lack of smiling of eastern europeans... your 100% right however what you might not know is that is what it is like in public... in private it is a whole other story. Once you get behind the curtain I doubt you could find a more passionate women on the planet. They know how to cut loose... and then some...

CK

[benjio]

I read all of your posts on this thread and its interesting to see how your conclusion's are way off base about the Ukraine.

You talk about the Ukraine as a possible change, something different than latin america... well your right it is so different it is like being on another planet. The culture there is so vastly different than latin america it is almost like opposite poles.

It is very difficult to find a good woman there that is not messed up emotionally. They are amazing women for the first little while but the vast majority of them go seriously sideways in the end. Latinas are passionate... Ukrainian women are emotional... There is a a huge difference. They are raised with a very loose set of morals when it comes to honesty. It is a country wide thing not a local thing. The average Ukranian woman will think nothing of scamming you. The vast majority of them are raised to take what they want... and if you have to lie or con in order to do it then that is considered ok. They are very subtle about it to. They will milk you over an extended period of time and think nothing of it.

They can be exeptionally good liers due to their common history of having to hide things while they were a communist country. It is a cultural norm there. The economic downturn has seriously increased the level of hardship in the Ukraine the last few years. In turn this has also increased the level of desperation/dispare/need on the part of the Ukrainian woman. This translates into they have to do whatever it takes to survive. You do the math...

So buyer beware. There are a lot of really good women there that can be found if your willing to be carefull, take your time and not ever ignore red flags. If your only into the really really hot looking women... your in for quite the ride. Looks like that in the Ukraine translate into a living... It is almost considered a commodity there. Trust me they know how to trade on it. Combine those kinds of looks with their inate sense for telling exceptional lies and being able to hide things.you have the basic formula for a giant disaster.

You cannot show up there as a timid manfrom North America. They will eat you alive. In their culture a man takes what he wants. He dosn't ask he tells you. So if you show up insecure and needy like most North American men. Your basically screwed from the get go. I know this all sounds a bit harsh but I have seen many men fall to these women. I have dated these women. I have friends who married women from the Ukraine. My dad was born in the Ukraine and I have family in the Ukraine so believe me when I say that you need to be careful. It is not uncommon for the whole family to sit around and discuss how their daughter is going to milk you for more money or things. I have seen mothers encouraging their daughters to do it. they love that your weak... it makes their job so much easier.

Zon,

your gunna fit right in there. With your loose morals(non traditional values) when it comes to women, you will have an endless supply of takers. I agree with Innocentvixen if you hang with a woman who sheds her clothes for a living in whatever degree... she is not long term matterial and in almost 100% of the cases will be emotionally messed up and incapable of commiting long term. There are so many women that will give you what you want there for some meals, hotel stays and maybe some gifts here and there.

Jeff, you comment on their lack of smiling of eastern europeans... your 100% right however what you might not know is that is what it is like in public... in private it is a whole other story. Once you get behind the curtain I doubt you could find a more passionate women on the planet. They know how to cut loose... and then some...

CK

Clark,
 
Very interesting comments and nice to see you posting again.
 
I've always been curious about gringo dating experiences in Eastern Europe and other regions of the former Soviet Union. The women aren't my type but I've always thought of it as such an adventure for a man to travel so far to look for love. Out of the maybe five men I've met that wife hunted in that part of the world and brought women back to the U.S., every single marriage ended in a horrible divorce and each man stated that taking the trip was the worst mistake of his life. I have to think some men are successful with Eastern European Women because from what I understand it's still quite popular to wife hunt there (especially with men from the East Coast); but I have yet to hear about any success stories.

[Jeff S]

@clark: The exact same claim is reinforced here frequently about the honesty of Latinos. Also, I'm sure you'll get plenty of disagreements about who are the most passionate women on the planet.

[John W]

Zon,

I think your post about the thrice married American is inaccurate.  I believe that hombre only brought one Colombian wife here to the US.  Do not think the other two ever made it here.  The one that did is the Playboy model.  Also, this hombre is well known for having the attitude that he does not expect marriages to last forever.  He lives in the moment, I believe he has stated that he did not regret any of his past marriage, and I believe he has also stated he never had to give anything to his ex-wives that he did not want to give them (no alimony or monetary settlements post divorce.)  I do not think he is a good example for men interested in a serious, life-long marriage, but I do admire his positive attitude, wealth of information regarding Colombia, and willingness to share with and help others.  I should add that what I write is based solely on his posts as I have never met him, so perhaps you know more about him from your in person meetings with him. 

[benjio]

The person Zon is describing also reminds me of a gentleman I met once in Colombia but not sure if we're talking about the same guy. The man I know only met one of his ex-wives in Medellin. The last two were both from the coast.

[John W]

I think the person Zon is referring to has met his wives in Cali.  I might be completely wrong.

[aconcepts]

Well who the hell is this guy? Seems interesting to me and i want to know more about him. Does he post here? Sounds like my kind of guy! Lives in the moment and takes things as they come without unrealistic expectations and is not about defining himself solely by his marriage(s). Inquiring minds want to know,,,,

[Researcher]

@clark: The exact same claim is reinforced here frequently about the honesty of Latinos. Also, I'm sure you'll get plenty of disagreements about who are the most passionate women on the planet.

     That is because women aren't much different in different parts of the world. I realized that when I traveled to other countries. What I saw was people are basically the same it is just that there is a "layer" of culture that makes them seem different. Good and bad everywhere. When it comes right down to it I learned to look at people on an individual basis.

      Researcher

   

[John W]

Well who the hell is this guy? Seems interesting to me............Inquiring minds want to know,,,,

He is a member here.  I do not want to post second hand information or information that he might have posted briefly in the past but does not want posted at this time.  If he wants to comment I am sure we'll hear from him.

[aconcepts]

You tease more than a french hooker in a beauty salon...

[Zon]

Zon,


your gunna fit right in there. With your loose morals(non traditional values) when it comes to women, you will have an endless supply of takers. I agree with Innocentvixen if you hang with a woman who sheds her clothes for a living in whatever degree... she is not long term matterial and in almost 100% of the cases will be emotionally messed up and incapable of commiting long term. There are so many women that will give you what you want there for some meals, hotel stays and maybe some gifts here and there.

I have wanted to live life FULL BLAST and EXPERIENCE things.  I am open-minded ... nothing more