A Different Destination for a change - Ukraine

[Zon]

Yep, I am starting to "get it".


I came DAMN CLOSE to not going to the agency yesterday morning because it all felt like "Romper Room" to me. 


Then, I had my first "date" (please!)  And, much to my surprise, she was a wonderful, beautiful (VERY), sincere woman.   And, then I had my second "date" - she looked and acted like Rene Zellweger, and she was sincere and smart and nice.  And, then I was talking to the owner of the agency and a friend of her's came to the office ... and one thing led to another.  We had diner and she was rather remarkable.  And, then I met some of the guys on the trip and while I was buying a beer, a young woman came up and introduced herself to me and talked.  She is an English teacher in Kharkov.  I got her phone and email and we are to see each other this week.


I like this city very much. The people are nice and smiling faces are not rare.  The scary guys from Prague are gone.  This is the type of place I was hoping to find.


I still have to "bring down the volume" on my personality a bit. It is OK to be fun, but things are MUCH more understated here it seems to me.   It is easy to come off as "selfish" and "egotistical" and "greedy." I am a quick study on human psychology.   This last sentence deserves it's own post.


Yeah, beautiful women are everywhere here!!!  Fortunately, I am somewhat immune to that.  The rest of the American guys are walking around shell shocked LOL  All you have to do is be normal, nice - and be know yourself, be selective.  It will take me just a little time to write something comprehensive and intelligent on the women here. 


( BTW - I do think that younger women here are a LITTLE similar to the USA.  Different from Colombian )

[Zon]

It is very difficult to find a good woman there


IT IS DIFFICULT EVERYWHERE!

[Zon]

they love that your weak... it makes their job so much easier.

PFFFFF   WHO do you think you are talking to?


I met a woman yesterday ON THE STREET.  She was 31, a lawyer ... spoke English, rather nice.   We had diner and took a walk.  I held her, and she said it was too  early for a hug.  I said, "this is not a hug.  This is what a good man does to care for a woman."   10 minutes later, her lips were close to mine, and I blew on them only.   5 minutes late, she said, do you not want to kiss me and be with me tonight.  I said, "tal vez".    Then, I kissed her WELL  She said, "You do not kiss like a Russian man."  ( I was thinking that I did not want to be with this woman).  I instantly said, "I don't give a [snip]."   


Is that weak for you?


I know who I am.  I know what I have and what I want.  Measure Twice.  Cut Once!

[innerperson]

PFFFFF   WHO do you think you are talking to?


I met a woman yesterday ON THE STREET.  She was 31, a lawyer ... spoke English, rather nice.   We had diner and took a walk.  I held her, and she said it was too  early for a hug.  I said, "this is not a hug.  This is what a good man does to care for a woman."   10 minutes later, her lips were close to mine, and I blew on them only.   5 minutes late, she said, do you not want to kiss me and be with me tonight.  I said, "tal vez".    Then, I kissed her WELL  She said, "You do not kiss like a Russian man."  ( I was thinking that I did not want to be with this woman).  I instantly said, "I don't give a [snip]."   


Is that weak for you?


I know who I am.  I know what I have and what I want.  Measure Twice.  Cut Once!

lol  So kissing a girl you don't want makes you strong?  Thanks for the laugh chief.  Keep it coming.

[Zon]

you were the one that suggested that I, or others, or all American men get run over by a pretty girl.  "they love that your weak... it makes their job so much easier."  I gave a couple examples of my FIRST day in Kharkov to simply illustrate that SOME AM have a little more capability / resistance to feminine favors.  That is all, Chief.

=== More about women here ...

Most younger women here ( 19 - 25 ish ) seem content to date boys and be "girlish" - a little like American girls.  Colombianas seemed to me to be more fully baked (although perhaps more simple) and anxious to meet an established man rather than a boy their own age.   Having said that, there are exceptions.  Life is HARD here.  Average salary is less than Colombia 400 - 500 US a month.  Young people are challenged to hope for a happy, modestly successful life.   I have spent time with a handful of women and they all say the same thing about Ukrainian men - not good.  So, for a woman to be a Doctor or Dentist or something "accomplished" ... they have had to overcome some steep challenges.

The biggest thing that jumps out at me is the amount of great legs and high heel shoes I see here - AMAZING.

[innerperson]

you were the one that suggested that I, or others, or all American men get run over by a pretty girl.  "they love that your weak... it makes their job so much easier."  I gave a couple examples of my FIRST day in Kharkov to simply illustrate that SOME AM have a little more capability / resistance to feminine favors.  That is all, Chief.

I think your delusions are getting the best of you.  I didn't post anything in terms of weak men getting run over.  Someone else did, Chief.

I used to live in Ukraine so I doubt you have anything to teach me.

[aconcepts]

I love legs!


pant pant pant....


Monkey butt and long legs..


There I go again, a fool in lust.  At least I know the difference between love and lust unlike some jackasses that marry thier playmates. I mean being able to lust and lurch at will is the best thing about being single.


Like my friend and mentor said "there is only one thing worse than a fool in love, - an old fool in love..." 



ah I miss the Alpha male days...

[fathertime]

 

I met a woman yesterday ON THE STREET.  She was 31, a lawyer ... spoke English, rather nice.   We had diner and took a walk.  I held her, and she said it was too  early for a hug.  I said, "this is not a hug.  This is what a good man does to care for a woman."   10 minutes later, her lips were close to mine, and I blew on them only.   5 minutes late, she said, do you not want to kiss me and be with me tonight.  I said, "tal vez".    Then, I kissed her WELL  She said, "You do not kiss like a Russian man."  ( I was thinking that I did not want to be with this woman).  I instantly said, "I don't give a [snip]."   


Is that weak for you?


I know who I am.  I know what I have and what I want.  Measure Twice.  Cut Once!

Yes that IS weak.   The way you tell it it would appear you are becoming a real 'ugly american' actually and you have crappy manners with the women you meet.  Congratulations! 


Fathertime! 

[clarkkentinbc]

After reading that story Zon and how proud you seem to be to behave that way... All I can say is NICE!!!! Your a real special guy. Real lady charmer! She should be so lucky as to breath the same air as you....

Be careful Zon... you don't get how the culture works there... you mess with the wrong scanky woman(they almost always have mob connections either in their family, friends or boyfriends) by taunting her or messing with her head and I kid you not... if she gets pissed off enough she can easily arrange to have someone give you a hard time. If you don't believe me ask Innerperson he used to live there. I am sure he will have way more stories than I do. It happens a lot over there.

CK

[Researcher]

Yes that IS weak.   The way you tell it it would appear you are becoming a real 'ugly american' actually and you have crappy manners with the women you meet.  Congratulations! 


Fathertime!

               



               Researcher

[Zon]

Yes that IS weak.   The way you tell it it would appear you are becoming a real 'ugly american' actually and you have crappy manners with the women you meet.  Congratulations!

No Sir.  This woman was trying to manipulate me, and suggesting that if I cancelled my plans tomorrow, she would make me happy tonight.  That is exactly what the knuckle head was referring to about Russian women being a little more actively manipulating to "weak Americans".   How many times have I seen versions of this in Colombia!  Las Grillas! I did not have to struggle with trying to figure this woman out.  I can find versions of her in many places.   AND HERE IS THE POINT!  The problem (the scam) is not the woman 99% of the time.  It is the man for accepting it, or being confused by it, or not being emotionally complete to manage it.   When she said, you do not kiss like a Russian man ... and think about it for a second.  I will tell you honestly that 3 years ago my initial reaction would have been - WHY / HOW / WHAT. The focus would have been on me, and my insecurities - especially of a attraction / sexual nature.   Nowadays, I don't give a [snip]. It is not because I am a different man fundamentally than I was 3 years ago ... I simply have experience now.  That goes to the central point of knowing and begin content with yourself.  Not being overly concerned about what people (women) are thinking about you.


NOW THEN, as it turns out I WAS TOTALLY WRONG ABOUT AGENCIES. (HOW MANY "good girls" could I have met in Colombia! That was fooling!) Sure it is a little uncomfortable at first, but it is always that way for the first 5 - 15 minutes.  Despite my post above, I have been very slow and very respectful to the women I have met through agencies.  I have been at Karaoke clubs / dance clubs / bowling alleys ... and in these places I have met women rather easily.  BUT, I have noticed that an outgoing personality, confidence, and asking for a woman's phone number too quickly - while it works - sends off the complete opposite signals that I desire.   Similarly, I went to the biggest club in Kharkov on Saturday night.  Without getting boyish, there are a LOT of pretty girls here.  BUT, why would I want to meet ANY woman in a club at 3:00AM?  What does this say about her?  And what does this say about me?  TOO MUCH CHOCOLATE.  I left by myself at 1:30 AM to get some badly needed rest and do a little work.


MORE THAN THAT, Russian woman can perceive a very subdued meeting and personality, and draw the conclusion that the American is Vain, Egotistical, and Greedy.  This deserves its own post.


AND there seems to be more hopelessness here, and more of a resignation that life is hard, and not likely to change with the young people.   AND, there seems to be more of a bitter acceptance that men in this country are a disappointment.  One 31 year old woman says, "All Ukrainian men cheat - that is how it is."  (Colomibans wold say the same thing)   She continued, "It is best to give your husband a kiss and condom as he leaves the house, than to worry about it.  Just dont bring home diseases."  (I can't imagine a Colombian woman saying that?)


I have met two women that seem AWFULLY nice.  I will see them again. 

[Zon]

Be careful Zon... you don't get how the culture works there... you mess with the wrong scanky woman(they almost always have mob connections either in their family, friends or boyfriends) by taunting her or messing with her head and I kid you not... if she gets pissed off enough she can easily arrange to have someone give you a hard time. If you don't believe me ask Innerperson he used to live there. I am sure he will have way more stories than I do. It happens a lot over there.

I thought Prauge was DAMN SCARY.  I felt like I was an inch away from a fight the entire time I was in non tourist areas.   Sort of similar in Kiev.  Kharkov feels like Colombia.  Not as dangerous.


I treat people the way they treat me.  I go through the rough spots, but I am not affected by them - just passing through.  I am not interested in the same things here that I was interested in, in Colombia.   That was a different time for me.   At this time,  I am OK with not going to a club for the rest of the my life:)  For women, going to a club - more or less - is like taking them to an upper scale shopping district with all the most expensive brands.  There is nothing WRONG with that ... but it sends off all the wrong messages; it highlights all the wrong values and desires.


I have already shifted into a lower gear here.  I probably will continue to do it moreso. 

[fathertime]

No Sir.  This woman was trying to manipulate me, and suggesting that if I cancelled my plans tomorrow, she would make me happy tonight.  That is exactly what the knuckle head was referring to about Russian women being a little more actively manipulating to "weak Americans".   How many times have I seen versions of this in Colombia!  Las Grillas! I did not have to struggle with trying to figure this woman out.  I can find versions of her in many places.   AND HERE IS THE POINT!  The problem (the scam) is not the woman 99% of the time.  It is the man for accepting it, or being confused by it, or not being emotionally complete to manage it.   When she said, you do not kiss like a Russian man ... and think about it for a second.  I will tell you honestly that 3 years ago my initial reaction would have been - WHY / HOW / WHAT. The focus would have been on me, and my insecurities - especially of a attraction / sexual nature.   Nowadays, I don't give a [snip]. It is not because I am a different man fundamentally than I was 3 years ago ... I simply have experience now.  That goes to the central point of knowing and begin content with yourself.  Not being overly concerned about what people (women) are thinking about you.

 It still sounds weak to me.  It also looks like you are getting very defensive again.  I don’t know what you are putting out to the ladies which results in them making you feel like they are all manipulating/using you.   I must have picked differently during the dating process because I rarely felt like the ladies were overtly manipulating me.   Very simply when I felt one was, I did not call her back.  I didn’t curse at them, like you claim to have done.   By the way you describe it, there was no reason to be rude to the lady…  She was probably flirting with you the way she is accustomed to, and didn't deserve to be treated rudely.  You didn’t seem to be attracted to her anyway, so one of the easiest things to do (not strong) is to be short/blunt/rude to a lady you don’t have much interest in.  Taking a strong stand (when needed) and putting it all on the line with a woman you truly have interest in or love, is a strong move.  IMO

NOW THEN, as it turns out I WAS TOTALLY WRONG ABOUT AGENCIES. (HOW MANY "good girls" could I have met in Colombia! That was fooling!) 

Remember how concerned you were thinking/writing about agencies and the type of ladies that would use one, before you used one yourself?  [size=78%]   [/size]



Fathertime!

[SkyNorth]

Thank you...Zon for the updates.  I totally enjoy every word you type.  And I would like to say Bully for you and keep the stories flowing. 
I would add that we could cut Zon some slack when we bust his chops.  Sure I think each of us add a little theatre to our stories as we pen them but critics can ruin a good play.
 

[innerperson]

Yes that IS weak.   The way you tell it it would appear you are becoming a real 'ugly american' actually and you have crappy manners with the women you meet.  Congratulations! 


Fathertime!

FT, it is weak.  Men don't need to boost their egos by trying to put moves on women they are not interested in. 

Even if the woman was trying to manipulate Zon, a real man would just walk away without the drama.


To Zon:
You also don't have to rely solely on agencies.  Online dating is not a taboo there and many people use it.   Mamba.ru is a good one and it isn't just women looking for men overseas. 

Stop trying to fit everything you see into preconceived ideas.  You will get more out of your trip that way.

[Zon]

FT, it is weak.  Men don't need to boost their egos by trying to put moves on women they are not interested in. 

Even if the woman was trying to manipulate Zon, a real man would just walk away without the drama.

PFFFF - Real men don't eat tofu, or get manicures, or whatever.  When I meet a woman that tries to play me, I can be hard.  Do you think such woman are softies?!?!?  Me at my rudest is still a polite Colombiano - or Russian.

However, the only reason we are talking about strong versus polite is that a poster up-thread suggested that Russian woman take advantage of OUR weakness.  That should not be the case.  It is not the case with me.  I got my feet on the ground.


Again, if I begin to feel emotions for someone it is going to be because that woman DESERVES it. And, before you guys start thinking I am an egotistical butthole, that is the way it is suppose to be.  Especially so when you travel and accept risks to gain one's optimal match.  This does not mean I would not apply great effort and respect equally.  I am just a tough grader nowadays.  I do not question myself.  And, I can be more demanding (insistent) than most AM.

[Zon]

Look, guys, I have lived and debated and observed, and participated.   But, these things have not defined me.  I have always been quick to admit my mistakes, or incorrect assumptions.  So get ready to hold on to your hearts ...


I'll be damn!  FT was right. 


- Good girls can be found in agencies (and they are a dying breed)
- I have to ditch my ear ring and take an inch of my hair.  I come off as too much of a player.  Even when my behavior is the opposite.


====

[innerperson]

And, before you guys start thinking I am an egotistical butthole, that is the way it is suppose to be. 

No, it is because you're egotistical.  I have read many of your posts and they reek of insecurity.

You don't have a clue how a Russian man would behave. 

I will have to remind myself to come back to the forums in 20 years to see a 70 year old Zon talking about partying with drug dealers, dating 18 year women, complain about not finding an intelligent women (even though he can't speak their language and dates 18 year old women) and trying hard to show everyone he is a real man who lives life to the fullest.

I have to ditch my ear ring and take an inch of my hair.  I come off as too much of a player.  Even when my behavior is the opposite.

Judging by one of your posts, your behavior is exactly like a player. 

[Zon]

Judging by one of your posts, your behavior is exactly like a player. 

Today is my last day with the rest of these American guys on the "tour".  Evidentally, the group of 4 will swell to 12.  These guys are "nice, good hearted, more or less sincere men.  They are also sex starved, affection starved, confused about their correct gender behavior with regard to acting like a man.   Oh, and they point and gawk at every short skirt and pair of high heal shoes.  And, then some point out a perfect 10 and ask ..."Dude, do you think that girl is out of my league?"  Well, Hell Yeah - by a mile.


It is embarrassing, and it is embarrassing for the women too ... many of whom already has seen the worst of men many times over, but continue to hope.


And, I am a "player" because I do not point at women in the street ...  that I play it cool ... and because I dress and look more like the people in the billboards than an average DOOFUS that does not care, or is completely oblivious?   In most places those are just tools or additional assets - nothing more.   An outgoing personality; the ability to meet people who speak different languages and create some kind of social connection - men, women, the band, the waitress.  Again, these are only tools and assets in social settings - THEY EXPAND CHOICES.


BUT one does need to strike the right tone.  Too loud.  Too much volume.  Those things are a turn on in Miami New York, Medellin.  They are are turn off here.   I just got my hair cut  LOL   ( I can see FT smiling when he reads this)

[innerperson]

Today is my last day with the rest of these American guys on the "tour".  Evidentally, the group of 4 will swell to 12.  These guys are "nice, good hearted, more or less sincere men.  They are also sex starved, affection starved, confused about their correct gender behavior with regard to acting like a man.   Oh, and they point and gawk at every short skirt and pair of high heal shoes.  And, then some point out a perfect 10 and ask ..."Dude, do you think that girl is out of my league?"  Well, Hell Yeah - by a mile.

Yeah, I distanced myself from most Americans I saw over there because of stuff like that.

And, I am a "player" because I do not point at women in the street ...  that I play it cool ... and because I dress and look more like the people in the billboards than an average DOOFUS that does not care, or is completely oblivious?   In most places those are just tools or additional assets - nothing more.   An outgoing personality; the ability to meet people who speak different languages and create some kind of social connection - men, women, the band, the waitress.  Again, these are only tools and assets in social settings - THEY EXPAND CHOICES.

Not what I meant when I said player behavior.  More along the lines of playing with a woman when you're not really interested.  With that said, the way you dress is important there and it will help.

BUT one does need to strike the right tone.  Too loud.  Too much volume.  Those things are a turn on in Miami New York, Medellin.  They are are turn off here.

Unfortunately, the loud American tourist is well known in many countries.

[fathertime]

    I just got my hair cut  LOL   ( I can see FT smiling when he reads this)

I am smiling thinly. 


Fathertime!

Again, if I begin to feel emotions for someone it is going to be because that woman DESERVES it. And, before you guys start thinking I am an egotistical butthole, that is the way it is suppose to be.  Especially so when you travel and accept risks to gain one's optimal match.  This does not mean I would not apply great effort and respect equally.  I am just a tough grader nowadays. I do not question myself. And, I can be more demanding (insistent) than most AM.

As usual, you take yourself too seriously.    

Today is my last day with the rest of these American guys on the "tour".  Evidentally, the group of 4 will swell to 12.  These guys are "nice, good hearted, more or less sincere men.  They are also sex starved, affection starved, confused about their correct gender behavior with regard to acting like a man.   Oh, and they point and gawk at every short skirt and pair of high heal shoes.  And, then some point out a perfect 10 and ask ..."Dude, do you think that girl is out of my league?"  Well, Hell Yeah - by a mile.

 

From the way you described the men, it appears you are in the group you belong with.   


Fathertime! 

[aconcepts]

Preface this post with: All men that have been to forign countries to find betterthan the narcisitic rude AW have my respect; even if you are just considering it, Si if I ever seem to come down too hard on anybody, just remeber my preface. You have gone way beyong most wimps wait for the next scolding, the next restriction. Bravo to you!


" so one of the easiest things to do (not strong) is to be short/blunt/rude to a lady you don’t have much interest in.  Taking a strong stand (when needed) and putting it all on the line with a woman you truly have interest in or love, is a strong move.  IMO "


FT you have some excellent insights, Their basic nature may be easy to over look. However simple is not easy.


Here is an example; I was in the parking lot with Johana Solana (Miss CR2111/ top ten finalist Miss Universe) after a Miss CR2012 event, walking her to a car which happened to be parked next to mine.


I said hey what are you doing, want to get a bite, She said I have plans, I said some other time> She said maybe. I said, maybe does not mean no. Can I have your phone number. She gave it to me. Now I had just interviewed her for 30 minutes after she said she'd give me 10 mins. Anyways i pulled the trigger but she was just to sweet of a women for me. I actually wanted her to have better. Plus I didn't want to be bothered by her fame.


I really liked her. What a sweet sincere woman. Not a bimbo at all. Never called her...


My point is also walking away form a beautiful woman that is not a fit is a strong move as well.


My point - you have to know what fits. Like BPH wrote so eloquently she has to have your vision, not you fitting her pardyme. She is on her way to being some day time television talk show star. I don;t want that for a partner and I have a well massaged ego from my Alpha male days.. so I passed. My friends again, as they often do, called me crazy for going with my heart, my intuition, but its provided me a great untradeable life so far... so....


So Zon, use your instinct. Play and have fun. If something comes across that looks like she in to your vision, well go for it.


Regardless I applaud you fro traveling the world and bringing us insight regardless of how hard other are judging you, keep it up and don't take it personal. Learn from it. That is what life is for: learning.


Just be in the moment and don't fixate, Don't pass by the silver just because you are fixed on finding gold...


Right now my interest is on a heart of gold conservative tica that is about a 7 looks wise, But super sweet. Shy actually. Doesn't drink and goes to church, But she seems into me. Works abd has a little car, Very cute.


So, what are my plans for her. She is 30 years my junior. Honestly I don't know. I am just going to put one foot infront of the other and see where I go, Then I will decide, or she will decide. She has to be down with my vision of life - that's non negotiable.

[SkyNorth]

Zon...Really, a haircut in an Eastern Block country, that would scare the poo outta me.  All the TV, all the photos, I just imagine all of those damn goofy hair cuts those guys over there sport.   I have even seen a lot of bad hair on the ladies over there.  You are a Brave man. LOL

[Zon]

Haircut was good.   People are very friendly.  SAFE


It is amazing that language is not more of a problem, but it is not. 


I do find it more intelligent to stay in one's league here if they are planning to transplant a wife.  In Colombia it is possible for ANYBODY to marry a 21 year old beauty queen (but, there are other issues to contend with other than physical  beauty).  J


JayLo, Kardashians - Go to Colombia Easy.  Penelope Cruise - Go to Colombia, but bring your very best game.  Audrey Hepburn? Go to Ukraine, and good luck

[aconcepts]

What about an Italian example of a Latina looker (they are latins too you know) What? You don't like La"zon"ya!!!


Oooooh.. I can hear that one drop from here.


Erererer...
Knock knock