Rookie seeks advice

[braziliangirl]

Jason, Latin people are easily offended and insulted. They don't have the capacity nor the tolerance we have to laugh it off, when we are made part of a crude joke, even if you have known them for 20 years.

Perhaps that's true in Colombia, but not in Brazil. Can it be that different? Where else in Latin America did you notice that, Vikingo?

[braziliangirl]

Would you mind sharing with us why did you decide to look for a Latina? What in your friend's recommendation made you believe it would be a good idea?

My issue with many of the American women that I have dated is that they EXPECT you to do things for them/take care of them. It seems like they don't appreciate things. That is one of the first things out of my buddy's mouth (without me asking). He told me that LA women (he has visited Colombia and Peru and handful of times) have a zest/passion for life and that they get joy out of the small things that many Americans (male and female) take for granted. I think that would give me a new perspective and keep things fresh throughout a relationship/marriage.
 
OK, I will admit that I am attracted to thin(ner) women with curves too and naturally tan skin, so that may have something to do with looking for a LA woman too...
 
As for why I was looking for those traits (the ones that most men would avoid), I am probably looking for a hybrid LA woman. Or maybe medium spice would be a better way to put it. Also, she seems like someone who could adapt easily to living in the US and enjoy it here.

Jason,

Thanks a lot for answering my question. You friend is right about his description of Latinas. Of course it's a broad generalization, but everything in this forum is...

Most guys are afraid that if they chose a woman that could easily adapt to the American way of life, she would quickly become "americanized" and do all those things you said you don't like in American women. My opinion is different. I think if you chose someone that had been out there and didn't become "westernized" has more chances to make a good partner. Also, your girl is 30, right? Her chances of changing drastically when getting there are lower.

It's clear that you are not looking for a puppy, and you have my respect for that.
 

*As for an update on the trip- As of now, we are still a 'go' with the Caribbean vacation. We are going to finalize our trip details and book everything later today. I have another week of vacation scheduled for earlier February. We briefly talked about seeing each other that week if things go well.  I'm not sure if I will visit there or her come up here. She seemed excited about the prospect of possibly seeing each other again soon.

OK, OK... You have my blessing. But, please, promise you won't get her there for the second meeting. Go to Colombia! Go there and know a bit more about her world. Believe me, it will help you a lot. And I'm sure you will win extra points with her. Remember that women like brave men and to be pursued.
 

*In a couple of our webchats, we play '5 questions'.  We alternate turns asking each other whatever we want to ask. No questions are off limits.  I asked her what the stereotype of American men was there in Colombia and she replied, "they are loyal and make good husbands". (I think that she gave the positive aspect of the stereotype and I'm curious if there is a negative side, but I didn't ask.)  She asked me the same question, but reversed.  I replied, "warm, cheerful, loving, passionate...   and hot tempered."   I wasn't sure what response I would get.  She laughed and said that it is true. Even before asking her this question, she has said many times that she likes to talk things out and not yell. After reading several posts on here, I hope this is true...

Very good idea! But consider that she would never tell you if she was a yeller. I know you'll be mesmerized by her beauty on your Caribbean vacations, but pay attention to how she treats people and how she reacts when she doesn't get what she wants.

Also, don't forget to come back here and tell us how did it go, even if it doesn't go well. Telling your experiences (good or bad) will help many people.
I hope everything goes well and you prove us wrong. I'll be cheering for you.

[V_Man]

Jason, I am going to assume that your real priority is to find a wife rather than have a vacation. I have no problem if your priorities are the other way around but I am going to assume that a serious relationship comes first. You can do what you plan and be sucessful but you are much more likley to be sucessful in the long run if you take the advice that you came here seeking.

You are starting the relationship off on a Disneyland basis. This is risky. These relationships require a lot of work in reality. Build up to the high points and you will have a much sounder foundation.

Please, please, please make a small modification to your plans.
Fly to Bogota and stay there for one or two nights THEN go with her on your Carribean vacation.
Even just ONE night in Bogota first will make a WORLD of difference.

Tell her that you are looking for a serious relationship and so not only do you want to learn a little about how the two of you interact in person but also you want to learn a little about her home city and her life there before you both go and spend a week in a hotel at some exotic place.

1. In Colombia, actions speak much more loudly than words.
 
2. There is little risk for you to land in Bogota airport, get a taxi to a hotel, to stay one night and then get a taxi to the airport the next day. The taxis will be a pre-arranged fixed low price (we'll explain how to do this with zero Spanish later). The hotel staff will speak enough English to check you in and get you fed. It may be slightly risker than going to Chicago for one night but not by a much.

3. Provided; she is employed, you are a decent bloke, you chat with her a lot on Skype first and she is convinced you are actually going to arrive - the chances of a Colombiana not turning up at the airport to greet you in Bogota are slim. This is simply because she knows there are literially hundreds of thousands of other women who would. Therefore if she is not there, she knows you could find another more attractive woman than her within 8 hours of your arrival. She will be there and if there is any attraction between you two she will not want to let you out of her sight for longer than she really has to. This means you will have a bilingual local looking after you in Bogota. This is not a dangerous activity. It's a city of 8 million people, so you could still be a victim of crime just as you could as a tourist in LA, London or any other large city. It just isn't likely.

4. It is going to make a world of difference that you demonstrated that your first priority was to meet her in her home city and get a glimpse about her life there before you run off into the sunset together.

5. It is going to make a difference in the short term and it is going to make a difference in the medium term as well. There are many things about her that you should be demonstrating a desire to learn about.

6. You are looking for someone who is motivated to live in the USA. However any Colombian worth their salt will tell you this is a real risk for you. She has reasons to move to the USA beyond her interest in you and beyond financial security. You should be vastly more concerned about this issue than about Bogota being a dangerous place to visit. I expect you will find she has geunine feelings for you. So I am not suggesting she will set out to be a golddigger. I am saying that it is very valuable for you to experience for yourself as much as you can about this woman's background before you become too emotionally involved with her.

- Every one in the world is unique. However chances are that:
(a) she will decide within 5 minutes of meeting you if she is physically attracted to you enough to be intimate (and very probably in the first 20 seconds)
(b) not withstanding that she said she wants to take it slow, by the time you spend a day or two in Bogota and fly together to a Carribean island ....... yeah well Colombianas are NOT known for being cold, dispassionate, slow, measured, emotionally reserved, sexually repressed,,,etc.

OK...   I am feeling a bit confused here...  Some messages are saying "be tough, be a man" and others are telling me (in a round about way) "you need to be sensitive and find out what she really wants".  So which is it?
 
In my opinion, I just need to be myself. Will I change if/when a relationship develops? Sure, every relationship requires both people to change some things for the relationship to work.

1. Yes be yourself
2. It is a little confusing to understand what people mean at first. You need to "be a man" and be sensitive (to certain things) at the same time. "Be a man" means to lead, to weather storms, be chivilrous, to take charge of the world outside your relationship, etc. Be sensitive means to be aware of certain things, be alert to certain clues, understand where she is comming from, be affectionate, loving, etc. but that does not imply that you walk on egg shells or be a neutered sap.

For example, one day some rather small thing may push her button and she may fly off the handle about it. Let's suppose it is a misunderstanding of some kind. It is probably a good idea to let her rant and rave. It is likely to be very animated. You can 'be sensitive' to her need to let off some steam. She's a latina - it's kinda obligatory for her. However that does not mean that you should back down on the principle. Imagine at this point that she is a storm tossed sea of big waves with spray flinging all around and wind screaming through the air. You are a rock. You don't try to stop her but you quietly refuse to budge. You are fair but you are firm. You are the man. Once she does calm down you remind her how much you love her and desire her. I.e. there is that sensitive part again.


 

[euforia51]

For example, one day some rather small thing may push her button and she may fly off the handle about it. Let's suppose it is a misunderstanding of some kind. It is probably a good idea to let her rant and rave. It is likely to be very animated. You can 'be sensitive' to her need to let off some steam. She's a latina - it's kinda obligatory for her. However that does not mean that you should back down on the principle. Imagine at this point that she is a storm tossed sea of big waves with spray flinging all around and wind screaming through the air. You are a rock. You don't try to stop her but you quietly refuse to budge. You are fair but you are firm. You are the man. Once she does calm down you remind her how much you love her and desire her. I.e. there is that sensitive part again.

V_Man ... this is an excellent post in its entirety. Still, the scenario described here sounds more like a bratty, lil, western errr ... woman than it does a Latina.

[vikingo]

<blockquote>Jason, Latin people are easily offended and insulted. They don't have the capacity nor the tolerance we have to laugh it off, when we are made part of a crude joke, even if you have known them for 20 years.
</blockquote>   
Perhaps that's true in Colombia, but not in Brazil. Can it be that different? Where else in Latin America did you notice that, Vikingo?
 
BG, I was married 26 years to a Mexican woman and had three children with her. I brought her home to Southern California and made made many trips to Mexico to visit her family. Before I knew her, I had an other Latin gf, also in Mexico (Mazatlán). When the marriage broke up, I lived in Panamá for four years with a woman from Cali, Colombia. In the last two years I have been living with a Colombian woman in Barranquilla, Colombia. Every one of my relationships ended and I fear the present one is ending soon, because of an uncontrollable temper on part of the woman. Even though I am very outspoken which is usually offensive to a Latina, I am a very calm and collected person, was never unfaithful, nor was I ever an obnoxious heavy drinker, actually I don't drink at all now. When a Latina ask me how she looks in a certain dress and the dress isn't flattering her at all, I tell her so and she get's mad. A Latino would tell her she looks gorgous even if she appears 20 lbs. heavier and she is happy.
He knows how to avoid an argument, I apparently don't, the stubborn German that I am. Diplomacy is not my strong side I must confess.
The women I knew had Spanish blood and the Spanish are well known for their ill temper and being easily offended and insulted. The Spanish inherited those character traits from the Moors, an Arab tribe who occupied Spain for almost 800 years and mixed with the Spanish of course. Arabs have a reputation of bending the truth, stealing and are known for cruelty with animals as well. That is why Spain is the only country in Europe that has bars on windows and doors and still has bullfights, but I believe Portugal suffered the same faith. During the Spanish conquest of Latin America, the Spanish Queen Isabella told the conquistadores to spread the Spanish blood. I don't believe that was the case in Portuguese Brazil, therefore few Brazilians seem to have portuguese blood in their veines, but mostly have other European backgrounds as Brazil has a 47% white population which is a much higher ratio than you'll find in Colombia or Mexico. Maybe that is why you, BG and the Brazilians you know are different.

[braziliangirl]

Maybe that is why you, BG and the Brazilians you know are different.

Vikingo,

I was talking specifically about the ability to laugh off and make jokes about disgraces (like being a poor country or having someone like Escobar basically ruling it). Here everyone makes jokes even about the most serious things (like the ex-president’s cancer), and laugh when people trip and fall for example. Some say that is how we survive and grow despite of all the bad things, like poverty and corruption. I really thought that was not different on the other countries in Latin America.

It’s very hard to track someone’s background in Brazil, especially in the northern states. I do believe most of us have Portuguese blood, as well as native and African. And we share the hot temper with the hermanos. But I agree with you that outspokenness usually offends Latinos and Latinas, including Brazilians. And I also agree with the following:

When a Latina ask me how she looks in a certain dress and the dress isn't flattering her at all, I tell her so and she get's mad. A Latino would tell her she looks gorgous even if she appears 20 lbs. heavier and she is happy.

Anyway, thanks for the history lesson.

[V_Man]

V_Man ... this is an excellent post in its entirety. Still, the scenario described here sounds more like a bratty, lil, western errr ... woman than it does a Latina.

Yes I know what you mean. When I talk about these incidents I experience from latinas with my mates I describe it more like she is saying: "OMG the world is going to end".

Probably you got a text from your Dentist's assitant reminding you of your appointment and your Latina suddenly decided this is proof positive that you are cheating on her and to her the whole thing is an obsolute tragedy. You'd like to explain it to her except that you can't keep up with her machine gun Spanish telling you how you just ripped her heart right out of her chest. After a while you figure it's just easier to wait for her to calm down.

There is probably a difference here between American women and the women from Australia and New Zealand. Down under the women are usually not quite as loud and bratty. They think and act in similar ways but they do show more decorum, at least in public. That lower volume does not imply they are emotionally stable though. If I had a dollar for every Australian woman that had unresolved issues I'd be sitting on my super yacht right now.

...and laugh when people trip and fall for example.

As a rule this isn't seen as funny in Colombia like it is in Anglazised countries.

[vikingo]

<blockquote>"...and laugh when people trip and fall for example.</blockquote>   "As a rule this isn't seen as funny in Colombia like it is in Anglazised countries.
 
Not only in Colombia is it not seen as funny, it applies to any Latin country, except Brazil I understand.
One has to be very careful not to mention poverty for example, not critizise their country, only talk about things you like and keep your mouth shut about things you dislike in her country or you will appear arrogant and above it all. Be careful and discrete if you offer to pay for something, let them pay if you are invited and look for oportunities to invite them. Many subtle nuances will determine if you are looked at as 'un hombre simpatico y humilde' (humble) or just an other gringo who thinks he can buy the whole town. And never laugh when you have the slightest feeling it may be inapropriate, you want to appear as a serious man, 'un hombre serio'.
 

[euforia51]

and laugh when people trip and fall for example.

As a rule this isn't seen as funny in Colombia like it is in Anglazised countries.

Actually, it's not funny here in the U.S. either. At least not to me. It's become a national pastime to arrogantly ridicule, broadcast, and capitalize on the misfortunes and short-comings of other people (Tosh.0, for example); which only demonstrates the lack of intelligence, immaturity, and trailer-park mentality that's been a plague for years now.

[braziliangirl]

One has to be very careful not to mention poverty for example, not critizise their country, only talk about things you like and keep your mouth shut about things you dislike in her country or you will appear arrogant and above it all.

I guess that apply to every country in the world. Here in Brazil we say watever we want about our country and laugh about it, but if a gringo criticizes, there will surely be a strong reaction.

[braziliangirl]

As a rule this isn't seen as funny in Colombia like it is in Anglazised countries.
Actually, it's not funny here in the U.S. either. At least not to me. It's become a national pastime to arrogantly ridicule, broadcast, and capitalize on the misfortunes and short-comings of other people (Tosh.0, for example); which only demonstrates the lack of intelligence, immaturity, and trailer-park mentality that's been a plague for years now.

There's a subtle difference in laughing with you friend that fell while you help him stand up and ridicule other's misfortunes. Here we tend to make fun of our own.

[euforia51]

There's a subtle difference in laughing with you friend that fell while you help him stand up and ridicule other's misfortunes. Here we tend to make fun of our own.

Actually, the difference isn't so subtle; which is why I mention that idiot, Daniel Tosh, who capitalizes and cashes in on the sarcastic commentary of people doing stupid things via YouTube videos. Sure, the people who upload these videos are asking for it. But in the same light, it doesn't excuse making asinine behavior the posterboard of our culture. There was once upon a time when extreme stupidity warranted trips to the institution. Meanwhile, the Chinese are excelling in mathematics, engineering, and business and are have positioning(ed) themselves to kick the west right in ass. Who's going to be laughing next?
I see your point however. And this last trip to Medellin, Glory chuckled at how I sometimes got off a bus(backwards). The turnstyles are a little confining for a 6' gringo with the build of a linebacker. What could I say? **chuckle**

[robert angel]

Laughing at other's pains and mishaps is probably older than people slipping on banana peels. Television picked up on this early. Shows like 'Candid Camera"--sort of a 'reality show' before such a genre really existed, filmed unsuspecting people doing funny and/or stupid things, to name but one popular show.Who could forget the Three Stooges? Larry and Curly certainly got the worst from Moe, although it was clearly not real, however hilarious.....
 

Things, depending on your viewpoint or state of mind,  evolved or devolved over time and in recent years, shows like 'Punk'd" and "Jackass" became popular, the latter making it's actors--producers (Johnny Knox and Bam) millions of dollars from TV and movies. These sort of shows became more elaborately staged and much more 'over the top' in terms of grossness and real physical pain.
 

While certainly popular in the USA, I think that at the very least, making fun of oneself is not unique to the USA. Jacky Chan plays himself as a clown foil very well, Benny Hill, Mr. Bean and others play the idiot quite well also. I seem to recall some clips  from Japanese TV shows that  involve having the audience getting a good laugh at people making fools of themselves and that sort of humor goes over well in the Philippines as well.
 
As kids, we got laughs out of sticking signs on other student's backs that read "Kick Me!" and I'm sure we weren't the only ones.....
 
Making fun of other person's race, religion, nationality or more specifically their country, is an entirely different matter. It rarely goes over well. Sometimes even unintentionally, one can be very offending. I remember trying to break up groups of Filipinas, who were fighting like crazed cats in chat rooms, only to have them cease hostilities against one another and in an act of national pride, band together and attack me for meddling in THEIR Filipino affairs. Some of us found the scenario more amusing than others, but I still chuckle remembering how the warriors turned on the foreign 'peace maker'.
 
When you think about it--it's not unlike how some nations act after USA  military forces occupying nations, otensibly to liberate them and maintain peace, lose their welcome after a while and are turned on by the very people they intended to help. There's an old Jewish saying that "Company is like fish--after a few days, they really start to stink"

[InnocentVixen]

When a Latina ask me how she looks in a certain dress and the dress isn't flattering her at all, I tell her so and she get's mad. A Latino would tell her she looks gorgous even if she appears 20 lbs. heavier and she is happy... He knows how to avoid an argument, I apparently don't, the stubborn German that I am. Diplomacy is not my strong side I must confess....

Funny enough this is the main reason I am strongly attracted to german men and yes, I am mexican and yes I have spanish mixed in me like most of my country, that and a lot more including other things vikingo does not seem to see in a positive light, maybe I'm an exception, oh well, at least I feel special.


Now if blood is all that matters to choose a life partner... can anyone tell me where I can find a mix of german and italian blood where the result is a blunt, intelligent, reliable, mature, handsome, tall, calm, patient, witty, collected, passionate, respectful, guy with a good, preferably sarcastic kind of humor and healthy lifestyle? 

[vikingo]

IV, I would have met every single one of your requirements without fail, hadn't it been for my age. LOL.
Seriously, you would find the man you are looking for in Northern Italy, where there is a strong influx of Germans mixed with Italians; tall, blond, blue or green eyes, industrious and honest people, the exact opposite of what you would find in the rest of Italy. You probably know that Germans aren't anywhere near as romantic as Latinos, including Spaniards and Italians, reliable and forthright yes, but if you love to hear words like mi amor, cariño, mi corazón, mi vida, all day long, hugs and kisses every hour, etc. etc., a German wouldn't be your best choice - unless you can train him to be more romantic...?
So that must be the reason you want to include a blend of Italian. You want the best of both worlds I suppose.
http://www.google.com.co/#hl=es&cp=11&gs_id=w&xhr=t&q=northern+italy&pf=p&sclient=psy-ab&site=&source=hp&pbx=1&oq=northern+it&aq=0&aqi=g1&aql=&gs_sm=&gs_upl=&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.,cf.osb&fp=51c80a7281f0039&biw=1260&bih=837

[InnocentVixen]

Haha, you don't happen to have a single younger brother do you?... just joking!


Hmm... I've always wanted to go to Italy, if I ever make it there now I know where to go 

[robert angel]

Once you get into Northern Italy, it is very different than southern Italy and not just the weather either. The Alps are gorgeous and the area is shared by Switzerland, France, Austria, Slovenia and there's a strong Germanic influence as well. My Grandfather on my Father's side was born in southern Italy, of pure Italian descent and he had fair hair and blue eyes. They didn't call Italian blooded Frank Sinatra 'Ole Blue Eyes' for nothing either....

[vikingo]

@IV, no brothers or sisters, a son, German and Mexican, but he is only 22 now.

Pero con mucho cariño te envio esta canción:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=roFJ4c7oJ6A&feature=related

[JasonA]

Update for this week:
 
*Hotel reservations made and plane tickets bought. I feel like I can relax now that all the details (where, when, etc) have been worked out. By the way, what is up with the crappy flight times out of Bogota?
 
*Her mother is upset with her about this trip. She laughed and told me that her mother is very dramatic. She also wanted to know if she could give my phone number to her mother. I said fine. So, I may be getting a call from momma soon. This could be interesting...         It's good that her mother is worried, at least she cares...
 
*We've had some good conversations this week about some deeper topics. I usually asked the questions (in a non-leading manner) and was surprised that we have very similar views. She can be fun and silly, but she's intelligent and a deep thinker- very cool combo.
 
*I'm trying to temper my excitement, but I'm really stoked to meet her face to face.  Here's to hoping that the chemistry carries over...     Has anyone had a face to face meeting bomb after hitting it off via the web? Any pitfalls to avoid there?
 
*I 'came out of the closet' about my trip to meet her to a few friends and coworkers this week. Surprised to get mostly positive reaction.  One of my hockey buddies offered his expertise if the need for a fiance visa comes about...  He's Canadian and recently defected here to Nashville for a girl- haha!!
 
*Countdown to trip is at 2 weeks...   
 
 
 

[Bob_S]

Has anyone had a face to face meeting bomb after hitting it off via the web? Any pitfalls to avoid there?
*Countdown to trip is at 2 weeks...

Yep.  Been there, done that.  Just guard your heart, and try to enjoy the sights of the place regardless.

[JasonA]

Forgot to mention in my post above that I bought Rosetta Stone a few days ago. Hopefully, it holds some resale value (didn't realize how much it cost!).  Gonna get started on that this weekend.
 
I've been reading some other posts on here. If someone could enlighten me on a few terms, it would be appreciated!
 
*What is a Costeno, Caleno and a Cachaco? From the context, it's someone from a designated area? Also, in that convo, it seemed like there were stereotypes about the different areas?
 
*What is Estrado? Is that a class system in Colombian society? How does that work?
 
Thanks everyone!
 
 

[Gato4Astrid]

*What is Estrado? Is that a class system in Colombian society? How does that work?
 

There are 6 classes of Estratos.


Estrato 6 - Highest class - very rich and very good area
Estrato 1 - lowest class - very poor and bad area


If you buy a house, very expensive, good area, good interior, it will be higher class - Estrato 5 or 6.
If you live in an average area, not poor not rich, probably Estrato 3 or 4

[whitey]

*What is a Costeno, Caleno and a Cachaco? From the context, it's someone from a designated area? Also, in that convo, it seemed like there were stereotypes about the different areas?

Costenos are from the northern coast (Cartagena, Barranquilla, Santa Marta, etc.).  The stereotype is that they are lazy, like to drink beer, and party.  They also have an unnatural affection for burritas.

Calenos are from Cali ... known for salsa dancing and plastic surgery, amongst other things.

Cachacos are from the interior, usually around Bogota.  Stereotype is that they are emotionally cold.

Colombia is very regional ... they take a great deal of pride in their own areas and like to make fun of others.   There are lots of other stereotypes: the women from Pereira are loose, the women from Bucaramanga like to wear the pants in the family/relationship, the Paisas (from Medellin) are good (ruthless) in business, etc, etc.

*What is Estrado? Is that a class system in Colombian society? How does that work?

It's not a class system per se, but it's often used as shorthand to determine the relative  wealth and status of an individual.

Estrato is a municipal classification that determines how much you pay for property taxes, utilities, public services, access to health care services, tuition, etc.

 

[vikingo]

If you tell a woman from Pereira to have a seat, she lays down.

[ArtVandelay]

If you tell a woman from Pereira to have a seat, she lays down.

I have never heard that phrase before, and I'm still laughing.  I am going to have to add that line to my repertoire. That is classic!