Off to the Middle Kingdom

[Capstone]

Early Thursday morning I depart for China so I figured that I would go ahead and start a pre-travel report now just in case I don't have time to post anything tomorrow since I will probably be pretty busy preparing for my trip. I leave out off Atlanta on a direct flight to Shanghai and then onto Xiamen which is where my fiancee lives. This will mark my 7th trip to Asia overall and my 2nd trip to China. I will try and keep a running account of my trip going as regularly as possible although I have decided not to take my laptop with me on this trip - I just don't want to lug it around with me everywhere. But I believe that most of the hotels that I am staying at have business centers with PCs and my fiancee also has a laptop, so I should be able to make several posts during my trip.

This trip marks a very important stage in our relationship in that I am going to ask my finacee's father for official permission to marry his daughter. Now I have already asked her to marry me and we already have the K-1 process rolling however it is time to get Baba's official OK on the matter. Her father is a bit leery of having his daughter marry a Lao Wai, which I think is pretty understandable, but hopefully I will be able to win him over without too much difficulty .

I guess that I should go ahead and give everyone a little background on how my fiancee and I first met, etc. Neither she nor I were really looking for a significant other at the time and things just happened. Early last spring I was considering making a return trip to Japan for vacation and had joined a Japanese travel forum. I had noticed some really nice pictures which had been posted by another member who had just returned from Japan so I sent them a message asking several questions. I soon got a response and found out that the poster was a Chinese woman who had just returned from a trip to Japan. We started to exchange emails/messages about our travel experiences and then after a while our conversations became more personal.

After several months of corresponding she suggested that I make a trip to China and as things turned out we decided to meet in Hong Kong. We decided to meet in HK instead of mainland China because at the time Chinese visas were not that easy to get because of the then approaching Olympic games in Beijing - the Chinese consulates were inundated with applications. So I made a trip to HK to see her in late July/early August and we really hit it off from the first minute of being together. We had a wonderful 2 weeks together and the rest is history as they say.

This trip will include 3 different cities: Xiamen, Beijing and Shanghai over a period of 17 days. This actually brings me to a really good tip to give - if you are traveling domestically by air within China do not purchase your tickets from any of the American travel agencies or even directly from any of the Chinese airlines themselves. If at all possible have someone within China purchase your tickets for you as they can be bought for considerably less there than here. I have come to find out that everything in China, including airfares is negotiable. My fiancee willed & dealed with several Chinese travel agents and was able to purchase me an airline ticket from Shanghai to Xiamen for about $60. She then got us tickets from Xiamen to Beijing for less than $100 and then tickets from Beijing to Shanghai for about $50. Now this is dirt cheap compared to anything that I could find here in the US. One thing I should also mention is that my fiancee bought all of these tickets for me herself and will not accept any money from me for them - she said that they are her treat. If by chance that you are traveling within China and do not know a Chinese person who can buy your tickets for you then use one of these two Chinese travel agencies and you will still get a much better deal on tickets than any American travel agent can get you:
www.ctrip.com
www.elong.com

Also if you are planning a trip to China and do not live in a city where a Chinese Consulate is located then I would suggest using www.mychinesevisa.com to obtain a tourist visa. I used them and they are very efficient - I sent my passport and visa application off to them and 5 days later my passport with visa was returned to me.

That's it for now but I will add updates as I have the time.

[TurboSS]

Let us know how it goes.  So you randomly met her through a Japanese travel forum?  That is really random way to meet someone.  But it worked out for the better, so good for you.

I have been to Beijing once before, so I will be interested to hear what you have to say about it (assuming you havent been there before).

[Jeff S]

Have a great trip Cap! Good luck with the old man too.

- Jeff

[Marshall K]

Have fun, Cap!  Just show Dad what a good man you are, and that you will be faithful and not some damn butterfly boy.  Unfaithful husbands are an epidemic here and the more you can prove your loyalty the better.
Yali's uncle is her father figure, and it helped that we pounded two bottles of wine together.   That was the ultimate bonding experience.

[Capstone]

Well I got back from my trip to China late last night and had an absolutely terrific time. Sorry that I did not post any updates during my trip but I was having such a good time and was on the go the entire time that I never even turned on a computer while I was there.

Everything worked out fine in the end with my finacee's Dad in that he gave us his permission to get married. We didn't receive his permission right away but things eventually all worked out in our favor. He likes me well enough and never had reservations about his daughter marrying me but rather he was pretty insistent that she not leave China at least for a couple of more years. My fiancee has a really good job and he thought that it would not be a good thing if she just gave it up so easily. Instead he wanted for us to get married and then I move to China for several years before my fiancee immigrated to the US.

After several rounds of negotiations he finally gave us his permission to marry and for her to immigrate to the US. His main concern was that his daughter must live up to some contractual obligations at work (she signed a 2 year contract which she is a little over 1 year into) and that once she does immigrate to the US that she continues to work and not just become a housewife. We agreed to these terms and he seemed genuinely pleased for us. So needless to say I am very happy and extremely relieved now because my fiancee had already informed me that if Dad were to not give us his permission then she would not be able to marry me - this is very common in China guys, so if any of you are currently thinking about pursuing a Chinese bride, please keep this in mind.

Now to fill you in on some of the details of my trip and to give some opinions/advice on the 3 cities that I visited:

Xiamen: I like Xiamen more than any other city that I have visited in China. It is very clean by Chinese standards and is even known as the cleanest city in China. Xiamen has a population of about 5 million which is considered to be a relatively small city in China. The food here is very good and affordable and since it is located on the coast just across the Taiwan strait from Taiwan, there is lots of good seafood to be had. There are several universities located in Xiamen so many of the people here are highly educated and the standard of living also seems to me to be a bit higher than other parts of China.

It was Spring Festival (Chinese New Year) during the entire week that I was in Xiamen and so my fiancee and I went out to eat with her family, friends, coworkers and her student's parents for all but 2 meals. In fact I only paid for 2 meals during my week there because we were invited out as guests for every other meal and the meals were all 15-20 course affairs because of the festival. I liked everything that was served very much - all the dishes were first rate in my opinion.

Several foreign companies are located in Xiamen which employ a good number of foreign workers from what I am told and as a result seeing a foreigner is no big deal for most people in Xiamen. Although I only saw about 5 non Chinese people during my week long stay in Xiamen but I did not receive any of the stares, etc that a foreigner usually receives in some other parts of China.

Beijing: Beijing is of course a massive city with an equally massive population (I think that it is up to 28 million now). Beijing is becoming more and more a very modern city with a ton of western influences. My week long stay in Beijing was fun and I got to see a lot however I am just not a big fan of the city. Yes, it is overly polluted and can be frustrating at times navigating through the hordes of people. I am not sure exactly what it is but I just never got a good feel for the city and am in no hurry to make a return trip. Although I did not have a bad time there and the food was nice (at least at the restaraunts that we ate at) I just prefer to spend my time in other parts of the country. I think that it would be extremely frustrating for a non-Chinese speaker to navigate their way in and around Beijing because very few people here speak Chinese and it is nearly impossible to let a cab driver know where you would like to go - luckily I did not have this problem. Seeing a foreigner in Beijing is still surprisingly a novelty - you will get many stares but you will also get many girls come up to you just to say high and practice their mostly poor English skills so it would not be hard to meet women here. I felt like a rock star the days that I visited the Great Wall & the Olympic village as I was asked on countless occasions to pose with people for pictures.

Shanghai : As far as big cities goes, Shanghai is one of my favorites. Shanghai reminds me a lot of Manhatten, in that it has the same look and feel. It is ultra modern with a lot of really nice shopping malls, restaraunts, nightlife. There is also a pretty sizable foreign population here so seeing a foreigner is not big deal and very common - I saw many many foreigners during my 5 days in Shanghai. There are also many many very attractive women in Shanghai although I will also say that I think that they would be the most high maintenance women in all of China as well.

So my preference in order would be Xiamen, Shanghai and then Beijing. I would recommend Xiamen to anyone who might be considering a trip to China either to meet a woman or simply for vacation.

[Bear]

Well it looks like things worked out so far.  I guess since its the way you want it, 'good job'. 

I wonder myself about China since it currently controls so much American debt.  Did you get any ideas on the peoples attitudes towards us? 

Must be the difference in culture but I was surprised by the statement that he doesn't want her to be a stay-at-home-mom but wants her to work.  What is the logic behind that?

The Bear Family

[Jeff S]

Glad you're back and things worked out. Congrats on a successful negotiation with papa-san.

Funny how the Chinese consider a city of 5 or 8 million kind of a small town. I agree with you, stay away from Shanghai or Beijing for a real Chinese experience. Nowadays China is just like Japan was back in the 70s - lots of fun and optimism. It really is the happy huntin' grounds.

That's one of the fun things about everywhere Asia - being a rock star. I still get it, even in Ginza on a Sunday afternoon - even with my out of shape waist and gray hair with young girls wanting to get pictures and practice their high-school English.

Keep us posted on your story.

[Marshall K]

Way to go, Cap!  I knew you'd win over the Dad.  It's probably going to take a while for immigration anyway, so she will probably be able to fulfill her obligation.  Chinese women do like to keep working.  If a guy wants a stay at home wife, he is better off looking elsewhere.  Consider moving here for a while, if you can.  I'm liking it so far.

[bcc_1_2]

Congrats on the trip. Sounds like dad turned out to be pretty reasonable. Concerned about his daughter's current contract which makes sense. That and he wanted his daughter to work in the USA. I'd be worried (especially in my city) that if she stayed home she'd get bored pretty fast anyways.

So I know in Thailand there is a dowry involved. Is that something you negotiated or is that not part of the culture?

[Capstone]

So I know in Thailand there is a dowry involved. Is that something you negotiated or is that not part of the culture?

In China they call it the 'Bride Price' in which the groom is expected to give the parents of the bride an agreed upon amount of money before the marriage takes place (can be anywhere from a couple of hundred dollars up to around $10K) - you give the money to the Dad in a red envelope and then he will give you back a portion of this as a jester of good will but then keep the rest as a sign of the groom's respect for the parents. I hear that many Shanghai parents demand a bride price on the upper end of the scale. But my fiancee's Dad never made any mention of this and I was told by my fiancee that he probably does not expect me to pay anything at all since I am a foreigner. 

One thing that did come up though was the wedding banquet. I am expected to pay for one but this is no big deal because all the guests give the couple red envelopes filled with money instead of gifts so you actually come out receiving more money than what the cost of the banquet is.

[Capstone]

Did you get any ideas on the peoples attitudes towards us? 

Must be the difference in culture but I was surprised by the statement that he doesn't want her to be a stay-at-home-mom but wants her to work.  What is the logic behind that?

The Bear Family

Hi Bear,
The Chinese love Americans and I was treated with genuine friendliness by everyone that I encountered. Some foreigners that visit China get offended by all the stares and shouts of 'Lao Wai' that you receive however these are not meant as negatives but rather as true amazement of the novelty of seeing some one who is not Chinese. Many Chinese people have never seen a foreigner before so it is actually a really big deal when they finally do. I myself relished the extra attention and I have always loved being 'A stranger in a strange land'.

As far has my fiancee's dad wanting her to continue working after we get married instead of becoming a housewife, there are several reasons behind it.

1. She is extremely intelligent and educated and he does not want her to 'waste' this gift by staying home all day.

2. He does not want her to stay home all day and be bored. he feels that she will assimilate into American culture sooner if she is out in the work force and i really agree with this as well.

3. He does not want her to have to depend on a man for all her money. His example was that he does not want her to have to ask me for money every time she wants to go out and buy a pair of jeans or something.

4. He feels that we can better provide for his future grandchildren if we are both working.

5. It is very common in China for both the man and wife to work. My fiancee's Mom is a doctor and worked full time until she recently retired a couple of years ago and my fiancee's two sister-in-laws also work full time as well.

[bcc_1_2]

In China they call it the 'Bride Price' in which the groom is expected to give the parents of the bride an agreed upon amount of money before the marriage takes place (can be anywhere from a couple of hundred dollars up to around $10K) But my fiancee's Dad never made any mention of this and I was told by my fiancee that he probably does not expect me to pay anything at all since I am a foreigner. 

Sounds like the dad is pretty cool. I of course want to blend in and respect the culture. I don't mind the symbolism of respecting the culture. I don't know about the rest of you all, but 10k is a pretty decent piece of change. Considering all the cash you have invested in your travels as well. From what I read so far Shanghai has the most high maintenance women anyways, but damn 10k.

I suppose a woman who is 24 and has had some boyfriends is worth less than a younger girl who hasn't?

That and it would be my strong desire to actually get married in the United States. Maybe have an engagement party or something in her country. Would that be a major issue?

[Bear]

How does this 'independence" he is asking you to make sure she has work with you as head of house?  If she can spend money as she wishes, at will, does that not destroy the unity of the family and your authority as head of house?  One of the really neat things my wife does that just blows me away is I'll make sure she has money for herself - all she wants usually, but yet she will still come and ask me if she can buy an item when she has the money in her hand and instructions to spend it as she wishes!  My 'ex' AW would have divorced me for even thinking she had to ask me for money which always kept us in conflict.  Do you think this might happen with you?

I know I'm in the minority on this issue but I am in awe at how well my son does in school and how Honey makes sure he does his lessons and is prepared.  The school has already acclaimed his abilities because she drills him constantly.  I just don't think that would happen if she worked.  Now that prepares the children and protects them in their fuure.

The Bear Family

[Capstone]

Sounds like the dad is pretty cool. I of course want to blend in and respect the culture. I don't mind the symbolism of respecting the culture. I don't know about the rest of you all, but 10k is a pretty decent piece of change. Considering all the cash you have invested in your travels as well. From what I read so far Shanghai has the most high maintenance women anyways, but damn 10k.

I suppose a woman who is 24 and has had some boyfriends is worth less than a younger girl who hasn't?

That and it would be my strong desire to actually get married in the United States. Maybe have an engagement party or something in her country. Would that be a major issue?

We are going to get married in the US also if our K-1 gets approved so that may be another reason why her Dad does not expect me to pay a bride price.  The wedding banquet is totally separate than the actual wedding ceremony so you can have a wedding banquet in China and then get married in the US no problem. The actual wedding ceremony in China is just a government formality in which the bride in groom sign some papers in and admin off with a government official - no one else attends or participates.

And yes, I think that $10K is an exuberant price to pay as well but now you know why all Chinese children live with their parents until they get married. The Chinese men have to save up money for the bride price, the wedding banquet and to buy a house. Many Chinese fathers will not give the daughters permission to marry a guy unless he already owns a home. That $10K figure is on the high end of the scale though as well, from what I have been told most Chinese parents usually ask for a figure of more like 8888 or 9999 rmb which is about $1500.

[Jeff S]

Same here, Bear. My wife runs the home finances, has major department store credit cards, and knows she can buy what she wants. She still asks me if she's planning to buy anything major. All these years and of course I've never said no. She's excellent at budgeting herself, living within our means, and saving instead of spending.

That's something you guys should give some consideration to: turning over the house budget and bill paying to your wives. Not all at once if she's young and inexperienced or irresponsible, but in my case, my wife was educated, had been living on her own, and had to support herself being self employed before I met her. She'll quickly understand the difficulties of living here where the streets are paved with gold. The trust factor builds considerably also.

[jm21-2]

The Chinese girls I talk to who are in their early 20's are all workaholics. I can imagine them wanting to work once they get over here. Can't count the times when I've turned on my computer in the morning and a girl is online working late at the office (about 1am her time).

One girl mentioned how she would like her husband to support her so she could open a flower shop instead of slaving away at a corporate headquarters...I guess that's relaxed?

[Capstone]

How does this 'independence" he is asking you to make sure she has work with you as head of house?  If she can spend money as she wishes, at will, does that not destroy the unity of the family and your authority as head of house?  One of the really neat things my wife does that just blows me away is I'll make sure she has money for herself - all she wants usually, but yet she will still come and ask me if she can buy an item when she has the money in her hand and instructions to spend it as she wishes!  My 'ex' AW would have divorced me for even thinking she had to ask me for money which always kept us in conflict.  Do you think this might happen with you?

Bear - I am not sure how you equate the fact that a wife works outside the home with the destruction of the unity of the family or the establishment of the head of household. In Chinese culture it is very common for both the man and wife to work and also to give each other a bit of independence when it comes to spending money. However it is also a large part of Chinese culture to save, save, save before you spend.

My fiancee and I had already discussed how we will budget our joint finances before we spoke with her Dad and we were on agreement on everything, so I have no worries about her going out and spending money as she chooses on a whim - we basically have an agreement that we will stick with an established budget of which a large portion will go to savings each month and then with our 'fun' money so to speak she can make small purchases as she sees fit. We will discuss any large purchases with one another before either of us makes one. But I also want to give her the freedom to go out and buy things without having to discuss each and every purchase with me ahead of time. I really think that if anything she may want to elect to put more money in savings rather than me going out and buying HD TVs, etc.

[Capstone]

That's something you guys should give some consideration to: turning over the house budget and bill paying to your wives. Not all at once if she's young and inexperienced or irresponsible, but in my case, my wife was educated, had been living on her own, and had to support herself being self employed before I met her. She'll quickly understand the difficulties of living here where the streets are paved with gold. The trust factor builds considerably also.

Jeff this is something that I agree with and have already presented as an option to my fiancee. She said to start out with that she would prefer that I take charge and handle the finances but I hope that it is something that she will eventually take over after she gets used to electronic banking, etc.