Marrying Up/Down

[Brazilophile]

A couple of weeks ago I started a thread titled "Is Marriage for White People" in the off-topic section.  A law professor at Stanford wrote a book, with that title, about the very low marriage rate among Black Americans.
 
 This morning he was interviewed on CNN about the response to his book.  He made several interesting comments, one of which I think is relevant to the Latin forum.  He said one of the reasons why Black American women do not marry is that many are reluctant to marry a Black American man who has less education than she has and earns less than she does.  The ones that do 'marry down' have great difficulty staying married as divorce rates are very high for couples in which the woman earns much more than the man, or where the man is unemployed. 
 
 That comment reminded me of past friends whose parents were from the 'Old Country' and of criticisms of the Indian caste system.  These past friends strongly claimed that women must NEVER marry down.  All of them said that back in the 'Old Country' women should not get too educated so that there will be enough men above them to let them marry up.  A professionally successful women would have very few suitable men to choose from for marriage.  She risked staying single because marrying down to get a man would be unacceptable.  The caste criticism I heard was that the families of the highest caste often kill their daughters.  Apparently, these families try to arrange marriages with other highest caste families while the mother is pregnant is case the child is a girl.  If they can't arrange a marriage by the time the girl is born or is still very young, then the parents kill the girl.  The logic is the same.  A daughter who remains single or marries below her caste brings unbearable shame to both her and the family.
 
 I saw a bit of this in Colombia and Brazil.  The families of the Latin American elite are VERY 'involved' in their daughters' prospects.  The men who date elite women are carefully vetted by their families, according to some men who have dated such women (or at least claimed to have dated such women).  Since men can marry whomever they want, this restriction on women seems to explain some Latino behavior of elite men.  They have a captive harem of women; elite women can ONLY marry elite men.  No matter how badly an elite man behaves, it is always better for an elite woman to put up with it than move on to a less-than-elite man. 
 
 My issue with all this is how a man or woman's 'social level' is measured.  There seem to be so many factors to 'social level' in the US that I can't keep track of them all.  I know that some US women see me as high social level due to my education and others see me as low social level because I don't dress like a GQ model.  I haven't paid much attention to 'social level' among Latinas.  It doesn't play a role in my decision making.  I suspect that more than a few Latinas have passed on me because of that.  Frankly, I am not interested in a relationship with a woman whose happiness in influenced by how she/we compare to others. 

Is this more of an issue for women than men?
 
 

[Traveler]

Interesting post.  In my experience, social class and social value are generally more important to women than men.  And they are more important to people in Latin America than to people in the US and Western Europe in my experience.  (However, for the super wealthy in NYC or Boca for example social status is very important as well.)  As for what you describe as elite men, not only women in their social class are expected to date them, many poor girls will gladly do because of a very slim chance for marrying up into the high society.  So the funny result is that many of them have zero game as a result because they don't really need to work at attracting women, but I digress.  I think the importance of marrying into the same social class is extremely important to upper class people anywhere, but even more so in countries like Latin America where people are stratified primarily based on their class, and where economic mobility is restricted. 
 
As to your other point about high-earning women having trouble in finding husbands.  I have read an interesting study about why the marriage and birth rates in Scandinavian countries are extremely low (at least for the native populations).  People there keep in shape generally unlike US, people date, but they don't really get married and have kids which is causing a massive demographic problem.  Well, women have achieved liberation and want a man who will earn more than them.  And surprisingly men, both due to very high cost of living and indoctrination by the prevalent social ideology, demand that a woman has to be high earning as well.  And then if two high earning people finally meet, their career obligations make it difficult to settle down and have babies.  Again, I have never lived in Scandinavia, but this was a study by local sociologists.

[dennislevy]

Most colombianas who I have met....have no idea of how to evaluate my social status or wealth.

I don t  have any social status, my parents both left their families physically and emotionally   (my mother came form France) and 60 years ago, my father turned his back on his family because he felt that they didnt treat his new French wife, very well.

My parents  were individualists with some close friends but they ddint belong to golf or country clubs, didnt ski, were not involved in a relgion, didnt go to religious services.....I went to public univerities, not  that I could have gotten into Harvard! j

My parents are dead, I am an only child, I have a few blood relatives in France and I am divorced. I dont have social status.

I tell Colombian women the truth............. I worked in high tech industries (mainframes, later the PC industry, later voice processing in tlecommuncations  as a saleperson and first line branch and district sales maanger.....and after 25 years in high tech......I was a distributor of cedar homes and sunrooms. many have no idea of what any of that means or how much money I earned.    Only one woman that I can remember quickly uindertood what my life was like ...and she sells advertising space for newspapers in Colombia...

If I told Colombian women that in my carreer, I earned much  more money then a Colombian doctor or dentist....it wouldnt compute.   And that is because the distribution of wealth is much spread out in Colombia then in the US..... In Colombia your career what you studied for means something, even if you never used it..........I majored in history, means nothing...

One strategy that Americans have used is to buy property, foir example a high rise apartment in Poblado in Medellin but I dont necessarily think its a guarantee  to attract a woman from a good family and from a certain social class.  Indeed, foir many of those men...they dont want to marry, they dont understand the class system in Colombia and they are NOT  interested in attracting women who are more appropiatwe to  ttheir age. 

I ve dated some mature women from estrato 5 and strato 6 backgrounds in Boogta   and my ex novia in Medellin is from an estrato 5 background.....

but I ve never attempted to penetrate the upper levels of Colombian sociiety.....I am not a Catholic,, although I respect the culture, and I speak good Spanish, to Colombians I ll always be a a gringo.

   

[Traveler]

I never attempted to penetrate the "high class" society, neither in US nor in Colombia.  My family is pretty high status in the country I am from, and when I visit I rotate in that circle, and well find the patterns of their behavior often disengenious and peculiar, similar to what Opus has described.  The same I have observed in Colombia somewhat because I have been exposed to "high class" people here, but I realize I don't belong in their group, and I don't feel anxious about it.
 
All in all, however, I found Colombians to be friendly, approachable and accomodating, so I like visiting here.  Knowing the language and not being a "monger" helps immensely IMHO.  It is an interesting and vibrant place, and there is no need to feel bad for not completely integrating into their high society.  You should associate with people who are willing to be open-minded and respectful towards you based on your character rather than judging you based on your social status.

[InnocentVixen]

I'm always amazed how different it is here in Mexico to Colombia... I have mentioned before, most mexicanas will actually marry down, the caste system is something we wish we could apply, but truth is even if a middle class girl marries into a wealthy family, the way our culture works means the guy will be a mommy's boy and will not be too interested in finding a good job because he gets everything from his parents, to me this translates to the guy being immature and poor, everything he "owns" belongs to his parents after all, it's not his and for a guy like this to have a sense of entitlement is pretty sad. Also remember the racism? even if the guy is lower class but is handsome, it is considered "marrying up" since you will probably end up with kids that are not too ugly.


So at the ends it balances out, if you don't have money you better have beauty, if you don't have any of those you better be white, if you are none of those 3 you better have a flashy degree even if you don't use it, none of those 4? then hope to god you have an angels personality so they like you; of course nothing of this applies if the girl is not trying to impress anyone and is genuinely interested in you, you guys are compatible and in love.


I've been thinking lately of how lucky I am to live where I do, money doesn't limit my choices as much as with other girls in central and south america, a guy could drive down to me if he was interested enough for so little as long as he is not too far away and even if he was he doesn't even have to pay for an international flight, he can come to San Diego and drive down. If I haven't found someone in all this time it must definitely be my own fault, I didn't know exactly what I wanted until I met someone like that and then wasted too much time waiting around for him thinking it was so rare, this might sound a bit feminist of me but I do indeed want my equal, someone with a similar upbringing, similar wants and needs, someone who will have their own interests and opinions to keep things interesting.

[Jeff S]

I think what you're seeing, IV is not a difference between Mexico and Colombia as much as a difference is how guys think that women think, and how women actually are attracted to men. There is so much paralysis by analysis going on here in many of these recent posts, that the basic concepts of how women are attracted to men is glossed over... big time. Men think women size them up by how much money they make, how good a shape they're in, and how they dress because men size up women by how they look, dress, carry themselves and what shape they're in. It's almost a cliche that all these things go right out the window when two people find each other. Sure, slovenly men are a turn off, but if men think they can improve their chances with women by visiting the gym, hair salon, or department store, they imagine that women think like men and they just don't. It's fun watching all the micro-analysis and wheel spinning going on though.

[opusone]

There is so much paralysis by analysis going on here in many of these recent posts, that the basic concepts of how women are attracted to men is glossed over... big time. Men think women size them up by how much money they make, how good a shape they're in, and how they dress because men size up women by how they look, dress, carry themselves and what shape they're in. It's almost a cliche that all these things go right out the window when two people find each other. Sure, slovenly men are a turn off, but if men think they can improve their chances with women by visiting the gym, hair salon, or department store, they imagine that women think like men and they just don't. It's fun watching all the micro-analysis and wheel spinning going on though.

If one has analyzed the amount of "paralysis by analysis" on a forum and concluded that the basic concepts of how women area attracted to men has ben glossed over big time,  then perhaps you could analyze such critical analysis of the "critic "himself. Generations change, things change, and people have different reasons for doing different things that may not  be pleasant to you based on your own personal experiences. Today's generation require the same for males and females, and if you're not traveling in those circles, then none of it would make sense to you. What my parents wanted, and required in a partner is totally different from what I want. I don't think my Grandma cared about  whether my Grandpa had a car, or marble in his shack. Yet , my mother wanted hot water, and a washer and dryer. My sisters all want different things. One wants the finest specimen she could attract ( purely physical for her), the other, David Yurman jewelry and Clothing from Vera wang, (materialistic) the other wants someone with a  degree. Men in my family have different things they look for and for them it is what they have deemed part of what would make them happy just the same.. So if one is looking for a woman who is the hottest, that's what males him happy. If the other requires intellect, that's what makes him happy. We all have different needs, and this generation , both male and female  have different needs from that of other generations. All in all, if it makes them happy, who are we to conclude what is the "basic concept" of why or how women and men are attracted to one another? Change is the law of the land.

[dennislevy]

I dress neatly but wthout flash

I wear a $25 Timex watch, A haircut s a .5 buzz job with an electric razor....and I haven t been in a gym since Lincoln was shot.....

And the only thing that limited me from meeting MORE COLOMBIAN women was that I needed my rest from time to time.  Actually dating colombianas isn t about analyzing, its about feeling.....if you feel  that something isnt right......then listen to your instincts

Can I get a woman to FEEL happy, to smile and laugh?
Can i get her to FEEL confident, to open talk about herself?
Can I make her FEEL beautiful and do it in a sincere way?

That s for starters.

F..EEL......INNNNNNGS 

jejejeje

[Researcher]

There is so much paralysis by analysis going on here in many of these recent posts, that the basic concepts of how women are attracted to men is glossed over... big time. Men think women size them up by how much money they make, how good a shape they're in, and how they dress because men size up women by how they look, dress, carry themselves and what shape they're in. It's almost a cliche that all these things go right out the window when two people find each other. Sure, slovenly men are a turn off, but if men think they can improve their chances with women by visiting the gym, hair salon, or department store, they imagine that women think like men and they just don't. It's fun watching all the micro-analysis and wheel spinning going on though.

    I agree Jeff S.Guys have always tried to analyze what attracts women hoping to find that Holy Grail. It's interesting to watch and I'm sure these kinds of round table discussions have spawned many books on "How to Pick Up Chicks"! The more things change, the more they stay the same.

     Researcher

[Jeff S]

If one has analyzed the amount of "paralysis by analysis" on a forum and concluded that the basic concepts of how women area attracted to men has ben glossed over big time,  then perhaps you could analyze such critical analysis of the "critic "himself. Generations change, things change, and people have different reasons for doing different things that may not  be pleasant to you based on your own personal experiences. Today's generation require the same for males and females, and if you're not traveling in those circles, then none of it would make sense to you. What my parents wanted, and required in a partner is totally different from what I want. I don't think my Grandma cared about  whether my Grandpa had a car, or marble in his shack. Yet , my mother wanted hot water, and a washer and dryer. My sisters all want different things. One wants the finest specimen she could attract ( purely physical for her), the other, David Yurman jewelry and Clothing from Vera wang, (materialistic) the other wants someone with a  degree. Men in my family have different things they look for and for them it is what they have deemed part of what would make them happy just the same.. So if one is looking for a woman who is the hottest, that's what males him happy. If the other requires intellect, that's what makes him happy. We all have different needs, and this generation , both male and female  have different needs from that of other generations. All in all, if it makes them happy, who are we to conclude what is the "basic concept" of why or how women and men are attracted to one another? Change is the law of the land.

Sorry to rain on yoru parade, but your grandmother didn't marry your grandfather because of the promise of hot water, and your mother didn't marry your father because he offered a second car along with the tract home, and the last women who said no to you for a date didn't do so because you couldn't offer her annual trips to Europe and a timeshare in South Padre Island. Here's some news that may surprise you, but women are attracted to men for the same reasons today as they were 30 years ago, as they were 300 years ago, as they were 3000 years ago - Dennis hit on it above - because how the man makes her feel.

[pablito]

I've been thinking lately of how lucky I am to live where I do, money doesn't limit my choices as much as with other girls in central and south america, a guy could drive down to me if he was interested enough for so little as long as he is not too far away and even if he was he doesn't even have to pay for an international flight, he can come to San Diego and drive down. If I haven't found someone in all this time it must definitely be my own fault, I didn't know exactly what I wanted until I met someone like that and then wasted too much time waiting around for him thinking it was so rare, this might sound a bit feminist of me but I do indeed want my equal, someone with a similar upbringing, similar wants and needs, someone who will have their own interests and opinions to keep things interesting.

IV, I don't know how feminist that is, I generally feel the same way, I think that the way feminists use the word equal is not necessarily it's dictionary definition.  Well, a non-revisionist pre-pc dictionary, anyways.  I'll bet dollars to donuts you and I would be much closer in terms of what the word equal means than you would with a hard-core feminist, for whom equal tends to really mean the same.  Now how exciting does that sound?


What I found when I was in Mexico was that I probably had more in common with Luis, the friend I did my master's with and who got me the job in Mexico, than he did with people from considerably different classes in Mexico, or that I did with people of very different backgrounds in Canada.  We generally shared the same concerns and interests, were looking for similar things in life, etc.


So I think that your recent thoughts are really a realization that what you want is someone you have certain big-picture things in common with, and that the odds are that this kind of guy will have had a similar upbringing to yours, whether that guy is Mexican, American or Swedish.  Of course recognizing what constitutes a similar upbringing in other cultures and countries might not necessarily be all that evident.

[opusone]

Sorry to rain on yoru parade, but your grandmother didn't marry your grandfather because of the promise of hot water, and your mother didn't marry your father because he offered a second car along with the tract home, and the last women who said no to you for a date didn't do so because you couldn't offer her annual trips to Europe and a timeshare in South Padre Island. Here's some news that may surprise you, but women are attracted to men for the same reasons today as they were 30 years ago, as they were 300 years ago, as they were 3000 years ago - Dennis hit on it above - because how the man makes her feel.

lol . You took that bait and analyzed it just the same.

[Bob_S]

Most colombianas who I have met....have no idea of how to evaluate my social status or wealth.

That's one of the great things about being a foreigner, as an outsider you don't automatically fit into any of their society's pre-established castes, classes, cliques, or strata.  There is no pre-programmed response to how to deal with you.  So you got a good deal of freedom within their society to flow to where you are most comfortable and at your best advantage.  And simply being a foreigner, you are already exotic.  And that give you an edge.

In Japan, that has led to quite a few "Reverse Cinderella" stories.  My wife has a Japanese friend here who is the daughter of a big shot executive in a major multinational corporation.  Big house with servants, international education, family summer home estate in the mountains, career with a major TV studio as a producer of a travel show.  And when she's ready to get married, who does she pick?  Her white guy old high school boyfriend she met when she was an exchange student in Bumfuque, Iowa and who is now a city hall clerk here in So Cal.  And like a good Japanese wife, she gave up her career to be a full time soccer mom (their kids and our rugrat are the same age and are playmates).  And then there is the case of Ayumi Hamazaki, a major pop star in Asia, who just recently married an unknown Austrian actor she met on the set of one of her video shoots.  She probably won't give up her singing, though.

[Traveler]

DL,
 
I do agree that how you make the woman feel when is with you is very important.  However, that's generally enough for seduction.  To keep the woman afterwards she has to feel the man satisfies her sexually better than other men available to her.  If all the guy can do is make the woman feel good, and the sexual component is lacking, she will gladly have him as a friend and sleep with someone else.
 
Also, just based on the stories that you were generous to share with others, the women that you choose to date are not extremely desirable by your own admission, so whatever I have written above about competing with other males does not apply to you because of your chosen dating demographic.  Being nice, relaxed and making them feel happy is going to be more than enough to keep their interest.

[dennislevy]

Traveler

What a cheap shot.....

I never said that the woman I dated wern t desirable.....I certainly liked being with them.!!!!!! And I donbt really give a flying rip what other men think of the women I date.....

But you re right, why should I compete with other guys....the problem with a lot of guys is that they are too freaking stupid to have a ownderful time with women who are interested in them and availalbe..... they trying to compete with everyine else.

Anyone  can chase women in fotos who has their tetas falling out of their blouses. That takes no imagination.

What is more fun is to find and successfully guess that woman who hides a very good to great body under conservative clothes ....or her fotos are NOT studio shots.............but once you meet her....you KNOW there is a REAL woman in front of you..

I believe in the 80% rule...80% of men chase 20% iof women in agencies...that I know form first hand experience  and I believe 80% of men chase 20% of the same photos and profiles on datinbg sites like colombian or latin american cupid.

A ot of men are sheep...maybe not 80%, but  they just follow the crowd because a bunch of other guys say...wow..... she looks hot....!

There are lot, let me repeat a lot of jewels in the 80% that men miss....W

why? 

Because a lot of  men  dont have enough experience to look at a woman s fotos and read a profile and see f there is anything of substance there...

or to ask the right questions  or how to really qualfy a Colombian woman in a chat. or how to make an imaginative approach on the internet 

and that s because  they have to have a woman who is between THIS age and THAT age and she has to have THIS size bust and she has to have THAT color skin.

My cupid  profile says I like women between ages 35 to 52, but if a woman in her early 30s thinks I can  be her daddy, I may just run slow enough to let her catch her, I ve done it before....

if a beautiful widow in her 50s needs tuning up and she is smart and interesitng to be with.. because otherwomen are to thick to see what her needs are,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, you think I ll say no?

My dad who knew more about women then anyone I ve ever known...once told me ....iif you can make a good woman like you....the rest isnt all that hard..

Jeff S had it right, you need some more seasoning....

[opusone]

Jeff S had it right, you need some more seasoning....

Sometimes, things can appear to be properly seasoned, and cooked to perfection, until you taste it , and conclude that who ever prepared the meal should be fired on the spot.

[benjio]

This morning he was interviewed on CNN about the response to his book.  He made several interesting comments, one of which I think is relevant to the Latin forum.  He said one of the reasons why Black American women do not marry is that many are reluctant to marry a Black American man who has less education than she has and earns less than she does.  The ones that do 'marry down' have great difficulty staying married as divorce rates are very high for couples in which the woman earns much more than the man, or where the man is unemployed. 

This I'd definitley have to agree with. With just a Bachelor's degree in a field that there's considerable demand for in the U.S. Job Market, I'd consider myself as one of the elite in the black datng community. The problem is, and I don't at all mean to be vain by saying this, black women on the same social and economic level as me absolutely refuse to be traditional wives and mothers. They want to control the household's finances, but not take care of the household itself. They want to work fulltime and pay someone else to take care of their children. They don't cook or clean, and their attitudes are absolutely horrible.
 
Imagine a dating pool where a man in his early 30's only needs to be well educated, moderately successful, without children, never divorced, not secretly gay (A HUGE PROBLEM IN THE AFRICAN AMERICAN COMMUNITY!!!), and not have a criminal record to be a catch. There are mountains of black women interested in dating me here in the states. I just have absolutely no interest in being a woman's bitch for the rest of my life.

[V_Man]

I just have absolutely no interest in being a woman's bitch for the rest of my life.

- 5 stars!

IV I don't think you are feminist. One of the differences between just dating and looking for a spouse is that you realise you need to find someone that has attributes that are important in the long term.

[Brazilophile]

Benjio,
 
 Of course Black American women are having difficulty finding good mates of any race due to their horrendous attitudes.  But the guy wants to sell books and it is mostly women who are going to buy it.  So he can't say anything that is even hints at Black women taking responsibility for their own actions and the consequences of those actions.
 
 Jeff S., Dennislevy,
 
 I disagree with your statements about women choosing men based (only?, predominantly?) on their feelings.  I think it can be true, or at least is truer, for younger, emotionally immature women, and women interested in a short-term relationship.  I believe is it not true for emotionally mature women who are seeking a long-term mate with whom they hope to have and raise children. 
 
 Women (and men) who are looking for serious mates are EXTREMELY analytical!  They consider the mate's general health, reproductive health (sterility?), family health (cancer history?), parenting skills, lifestyle (smoker?, drinker?), family values (how to discipline children?), etc.  When I was in my early 20's and some friends started marrying, a couple made curious choices.  They told me that their choices were based her being a good mother and a good partner at business and social events.  They did not love their new wives passionately.  In later years I would meet men who made similar wife choices but satisfied their passions with prostitutes and mistresses.  I also met a few women who planned to choose husbands with the same analytical rigor.  Several told me flat out that they needed a husband who could help them with their careers.  They only needed to like him; love and feelings were irrelevant.  A very smart former college mate was propositioned by a married ex-girlfriend to be the biological father of her children.  She had married an decent but average man.  She was confident she could control (and deceive!) him and he was going to be faithful to her but she was not impressed with his genes.  She wanted her children to have another man's DNA.
 
 I think that there are as many ways to choose a mate as there are mates looking for each other.  How a man chooses a woman for a relationship is based on what he is looking for and needs in a mate in that relationship.
 
 

[searcher2012]

Well in regards to latinas
 
I would marry down or up.
 
If a guy makes 40-50k a year... in colombia is that considered UP or middle or DOWN?
 
just curious

[Traveler]

If a guy is making this much in Colombia, it's definitely up.  If he makes that in the US, well, it will depend on the background of the girl.

[Jeff S]

Well, BP, for every women you knew in the past who made a specific, well reasoned, Mr. Spock-ish decision on a mate, there were ten thousand who were swept off their feet by some bad boy, or a good boy with the right combination of personality characteristics that stirred some inner excitement in her. Even a lot of men just want that. When I was single and dating for a long time all over the world, I didn't have anything like the kind of list of specific requirements that couple you knew had. My list was pretty short: 1) not crazy, 2) easy on the eyes, 3) make me feel like the greatest person in the world all the time. Pretty simple really - but it took about 15 years on five continents before I found it.


But if it fits your paradigm, go ahead and keep on believing that what women say they want has some kind of effect on what they actually want, or more importantly what they actually do.

[Brazilophile]

But if it fits your paradigm, go ahead and keep on believing that what women say they want has some kind of effect on what they actually want, or more importantly what they actually do.

I agree that there is rarely a strong correlation between what a woman says and what she does, especially in matters related to romance.  I also agree that many women, possibly most, predominantly use their feelings to decide on a mate. 

Again, I disagree that such a method is ideal, or even moderately successful.  If Black American women are using the feelings method to decide on a husband, then the very low marriage rate and high divorce rate suggest they should try something different.  (At least if they are sincerely interested in stable marriages.)  The divorce rate for White Americans also suggests that if feelings are the main factor in choosing who to marry, it is not working very well.

Your post reminded me of what my female cousin said when she married.  "I feel comfortable around him."  They separated within 2 years and divorced after another 2 years.  In the words of my old marketing professor, "Women change their minds a lot."

[dennislevy]

At ths point, Im not sure what women we re talking about...black American women, white American women, Colombian women, martian women?

Women are NOT some homogenous sex...they posses the same basic physical organs... but mentally women are not homogenous. They are conditioed by family, by upbringing, b societal expectations by theor own expereinces and if they choose not to conform, by their own drives, wants and needs.

When any man on the board talks about women, he shoukd be as specific as possible

In my life,  and although I ve been married twice to American women, I ve dated many more Colombianas then American women. 

And when I talk about feelings....I am  not looking for a  latin woman in SA to think of me as a mate or as a husband, to start......and not as the father of her children......Im 58, so I DON T want new kids ... and I still think I would like to l live with ONE woman...but marriage is not an immediate priority for me.

what I learned that the majority of Colombian women, 40 and up  that I dated, I m only talking about those women 

They will say...vamos a ver, poco de poco paso a paso......(we re going to see what happens, little by little, step by step....but they will let themselves be seduced or will seduce me BASED ON THEIR FEELINGS OF THEI MOMENT.

I ve arrived in enough towns in Colombia and made love to women at the first face to face meeting to know ithat its their  feelings that are aroused...emotoinally and physically....they arent sluts.   And when I am with a latina, I conntrate on the feelings the moment. mine and hers. That s one of the most important things I learned in three years.

[opusone]

Again, I disagree that such a method is ideal, or even moderately successful.  If Black American women are using the feelings method to decide on a husband, then the very low marriage rate and high divorce rate suggest they should try something different.  (At least if they are sincerely interested in stable marriages.)  The divorce rate for White Americans also suggests that if feelings are the main factor in choosing who to marry, it is not working very well.


 "Women change their minds a lot."

I wholeheartedly agree with this post. There is no "one size fits all" just because they are all "women". Women marry for different reasons all the time,and conversely , divorce for different reasons just the same. Just because one has never met a woman who married for security, or one who married for love, or another  for status , does not make it non- existent.  Quantifying all women as marrying for the same reasons , is quite myopic.