Pre- Nup agreement.........what are the essential elements?

[Alabamaboy!]

I would like to know what kinds of things you would put into a pre nup?  What would be fair, but at the same time prudent.  I know it only protects assets you accumulate during the time when you are married to her, but have no idea what is acceptable.

Even though right now I feel very confident in the relationship, I am not so naive to think it cannot fail in the future.

In fact, many people I have talked to are almost guaranteeing it will fail at some point along the way due to a more than 20 year age difference.

So with that in mind, what advice can you give me?

For example, one guy recently advised me to agree to giving a few thousand dollars for each year married.  So if we were married 4 years....it would be like $12,000 payment.  If 15 years....$45K and so on.

Another guy told me to make a time frame....like if she made it to a minimum of 5 years it would be $20K, 10 years $40K, and so on.

Another guy told me to make it only for like 10 years...and if there were no problems at that time, to cancel the agreement.

I know that no matter what you cannot just say...."you are getting nothing".  Because then it is considered non binding.

And of course I know if there are any children involved....that is a completely different story.

I hate to even bring these things up, but I got a huge financial responsibility hanging over my head right now from a previous divorce.  And I have two small children with her so that is not going to go away any time soon.

I would appreciate any constructive criticism.

[raycjs]

The only reason you will need a Pre-Nup is if you have a lot of pre marital assets and children from a previous marrage that you want to make sure they are taken care of.

Here are some basic items you would want in your pre nup


everything you own prior to marrage is yours and will always remain pre marital assets.

You also want to put in place a pay out that grows with time example

0-5 years married  $$$$$$

5-10 Years married $$$$$$$

10-20 Years married $$$$$$$$$

20 plus years married $$$$$$$$$

you also want to offer her a term life insurance policy so if anything ever happens to you she will receive a one time one lump pay out.This will allow her to move out of your home and start her new life. I will assume that you home is in your name only and will be left to your children in your will.

if you own your own home you want that home to remain your home


if you have children you want to make sure that they have there own insurance policy so they are covered and you want them to receive all your asset in your will prior to your new marrage. If you want to know what is fair just check the laws in your state.  and see if you can get away with 20 persent in stead of 50 persent.

My pre nup is over 50 pages everyones is differnet just make sure you have a good lawyer to handle the pre nup....



Ray

[jm21-2]

It will depend a lot on what state you're in. Best to talk with an attorney about it. For example, if you're in a community property state you shouldn't need to put in anythign to safeguard your pre-marital assets.

[Alabamaboy!]

why would I want to have a life insurance policy in place to leave money to her?  I never had life insurance, because I don't want people to benefit from my death.  It kind of gives them motive to not have me around so long.  I want to motivate them to keep me alive and kicking as long as possible.

It is not necessary to put in language about protecting assets that were accumulated before the marriage, right?  Because I thought that she would never be entitled to those things by law since it was before getting married to her.

And I do not want to give her anything more than 25% for sure, no matter what....  If I had to give her close to 50%...what do you need to have a pre nup for?

[Bob_S]

you also want to offer her a term life insurance policy so if anything ever happens to you she will receive a one time one lump pay out.This will allow her to move out of your home and start her new life. I will assume that you home is in your name only and will be left to your children in your will.

if you own your own home you want that home to remain your home

if you have children you want to make sure that they have there own insurance policy so they are covered and you want them to receive all your asset in your will prior to your new marrage. If you want to know what is fair just check the laws in your state.  and see if you can get away with 20 percent in stead of 50 percent.

To that end, you may want to look into creating a family trust to protect your current liquidity.  And you would manage those assets as the trustee separate from the family accrued assets that she would get half of.  You don't want her getting a sharp lawyer who'll take half the value of your house's purchase price assessment if it's crashed in value AND you've only paid off 10% of your mortgage by the time of your divorce. 

why would I want to have a life insurance policy in place to leave money to her?

Because if she gets preggers (against your wishes or not), she'll have money to live on and raise your kid should you get hit by a bus.  I never had real insurance other than burial costs until my wife got pregnant.  Now I have staggered term life insurance (several policies for differing amounts set to expire at different terms) to make sure the mother of my child will be covered for any reasonable monetary needs till my child is grown.  Though with my first wife, I never put her down as the beneficiary on anything, even the free AD&D insurance I get through my company because I simply didn't trust her.

[Calipro]

why would I want to have a life insurance policy in place to leave money to her?  I never had life insurance, because I don't want people to benefit from my death.  It kind of gives them motive to not have me around so long.  I want to motivate them to keep me alive and kicking as long as possible.

It is not necessary to put in language about protecting assets that were accumulated before the marriage, right?  Because I thought that she would never be entitled to those things by law since it was before getting married to her.

And I do not want to give her anything more than 25% for sure, no matter what....  If I had to give her close to 50%...what do you need to have a pre nup for?

Machine

Don't get a life insurance policy for your girl unless she has your children.

Unlike here in the States a Colombian Pre-Nup. will protect your all your assets both before and after the marriage 100%.

You determine exactly what she will get in the event of a divorce which can be from 0 to 100%. I don't know about you but I wouldn't give a woman 25% of my dog's house if we were getting a divorce....so why would you give her anything more than travel money.

Pre-nups in the states can be fairly useless expecially if the woman has your children. I personally would not put any real property in my wife's name unless we have children.

I have found that I can protect my investments and lower my tax liabliity by putting my investment accounts in my mother's name.

There is a reason why I have been divorced three times and have never seen the inside of a divorce court room. Any assets that I held in my name wouldn't pay any of my ex's lawyer fees let alone have anything left over for them.

Nothing like buying a brand new expensive car every time you feel a divorce coming on just so you are upset down on everything. hehehe !!!

[Alabamaboy!]

So Cali Pro, what do you mean a Colombian pre-nup?  What weight does that pull here in the States?  Does that mean I need to get married in her country first?  If I bring her here on a fiancee visa, how would it work?

So did you also have a pre nup here in the States?

If my house here in the states is already paid off, do I have anything to worry about with my leaving it to my son in the will?

I really appreciate any info you can give me on these things.

[papi]

I would say the most essential element is to cover your ass. Aside from that, consider not having to pay alimony on top of protecting any assets, etc.

I have one in Spanish which i can send you. It was done by an attorney friend so I take no responsibility for its contents.

My advice: keep her in Colombia and keep your assets and so forth in the USA.

[Alabamaboy!]

I would agree with you on that Papi...except for one issue....my thing is not long enough to reach all the way down to Barranquilla each night when I want to spend some "quality time" with her.  Other than that....it might be a good idea. 

Right now I am still working a lot and it is hard to get away as much as I would like to make things like that work out.

[papi]

well, i imagine there are certain members with type A personalities who feel their "thing" is long enoegh to reach colombia.

Move to Colombia when you are ready (rent)! But keep your money and property in the USA where she can't touch it.

If you are not ready, then a solid prenupt is definitely highly recommended. Alimony should be a key element.

[singlefather no more]

machin,

To make your prenup valid you have to pay for your fiancee to have independent Legal advice from a Qualified & certified Lawyer in your state that speaks Spanish and English fluently when she gets to the USA on her Fiancee visa.

This lawyer you hire on her behalf will not answer to you in anyway and will work for her and will advise her of all her legal rights and his opinion on the prenup.

If you don't hire an independent lawyer for her that speaks Spanish and English you will be up the creek.

Previously prenups have been struck down in US Courts because the Latina woman said she did not understand what she was signing and her lawyer did not speak Spanish..

Get a good lawyer,

singlefather



..

[papi]

This is good advice.

I hired a lawyer for my first novia and he pissed me off so much I decided not to get married....lol

[Alabamaboy!]

Singlefather have you heard of anything like Calipro is describing where you have a "Colombian pre-nup"?  How does it work?

[singlefather no more]

machin,

I have not heard anything about Colombian prenups but I think he got married in Colombia ? As he mentions he has nothing worth fighting over in his name so he might be in a different situation then you..

Where you Marry ( example married in the USA ) is where you have to have a prenup if you want one I think..

singlefather


..

[fathertime]

1.  I like Calipro's idea best.  Keeping yourself judgement-proof works great!

2.  I agree with Machin on life insurance.  I think it is a stupid scam, unless you have kids with the woman, then it may be worth considering, although if you have kids with her then she would likely have a stake in a lot of your assets which you might think is enough money anyway.  



Fathertime!

[Calipro]

So Cali Pro, what do you mean a Colombian pre-nup?  What weight does that pull here in the States?  Does that mean I need to get married in her country first?  If I bring her here on a fiancee visa, how would it work?

So did you also have a pre nup here in the States?

If my house here in the states is already paid off, do I have anything to worry about with my leaving it to my son in the will?

I really appreciate any info you can give me on these things.

I thought you were considering buying property in Colombia. If you do buy property in Colombia a Colombian Pre-Nup will protect your assets in Colombia and nothing more a PreNup signed in the U.S. will not protect your assets in Colombia. You should have her sign the Colombian Pre-Nup in Colombia before you take her to the states to get married.

If you want to protect your assets in the states you will have to have a U.S. attorney write up a PreNup here.

[singlefather no more]

1.  I like Calipro's idea best.  Keeping yourself judgement-proof works great!

Fathertime!

I highly respect Calipro opinion he is one sharp cookie and a nice guy..

singlefather

..

[jm21-2]

If you really want to go the whole 9 yards, give her some money and have her find her own attorney in the US rather than hiring one for her. If you hire one for her it may seem like you are hiring an attorney who you think will be more amiable to what you want.

[william3rd]

machin,

To make your prenup valid you have to pay for your fiancee to have independent Legal advice from a Qualified & certified Lawyer in your state that speaks Spanish and English fluently when she gets to the USA on her Fiancee visa. NOT TRUE- A TRANSLATOR IS JUST FINE. THE DOCUMENT SHOULD BE PRESENTED IN THE TWO LANGUAGES.

This lawyer you hire on her behalf will not answer to you in anyway and will work for her and will advise her of all her legal rights and his opinion on the prenup. CORRECT- AND WILL TELL HER NOT TO SIGN IT. THE ONLY REASON YOU HAVE  PRENUP IS BECAUSE YOU WANT TO HAVE AN AGREEMENT THAT GIVES HER LESS THAN SHE WILL RECEIVE UNDER STATE LAW.

If you don't hire an independent lawyer for her that speaks Spanish and English you will be up the creek. NOT IF YOU DONT HAVE A LAWYER. PRO PER CAN BE PRO PER

Previously prenups have been struck down in US Courts because the Latina woman said she did not understand what she was signing and her lawyer did not speak Spanish.. ADEQUATE NOTICE IS AN ISSUE-FIXED BY ADEQUATE TRANSLATIONS. DURESS AND FUNDAMENTAL FAIRNESS ARE CUTTING EDGE ISSUES.

BTW- THE STATE BAR TRAINING PROGRAMS SAY TWO THINGS- 90% OF THE PUBLIC DOES NOT NEED A PRENUP AND ATTORNEYS THAT DO PRENUPS ARE ASKING FOR PROBLEMS THAT ARE NOT WORTH THE COST.

YOU SHOULD WORK WITH A LAWYER LICENSED TO PRACTICE IN YOUR STATE. IMMIGRATION IS ONE THING; THERE IS NO PROVISION FOR FAMILY LAW PRACTICE IN ANY STATE BY AN OUT OF STATE ATTORNEY

Get a good lawyer,

singlefather



..

[Alabamaboy!]

If I buy the house in Colombia first before getting married, it is not "community property" right? If I put it only in my name?

[utopiacowboy]

I've read your posts but I still don't understand why you're in such a rush to buy property in Colombia. I've been married for five years and my wife still has her apartment in Medellin but I would NEVER buy real estate in Colombia. It's way overpriced in my opinion and better deals can be had in more stable countries like Uruguay. I just don't get it.

[Calipro]

If I buy the house in Colombia first before getting married, it is not "community property" right? If I put it only in my name?

If you buy the house before you get married she will only be entitled to half of the appreciation in the value of the house during your marriage. But if you get a pre-nup in Colombia you can say that she doesn't get anything or she only gets one tenth of the appreciation or whatever you want.

[raycjs]

Guy's

A lot of the advice you are hearing is all correct.

1 she must hire her own lawyer and the lawyer can speak English and Spanish. or she can hire a certified court approved translator.

2. the translator and the lawyer will sign a notarized copy stating they have read and translated everything to your fiancee. They will hold up in a court of law.

3. the Pre Nup will be in English and in Spanish and will be signed by all parties
including all council and translators.

4. The life insurance policy is cheap and it will cover her costs to bury you and for her to move out of the house she was living in. This home was and never will be in her name and this way she is not out in the street.

5. you should also do a post nup 6 months after you get married this way she can not ever say if i did not sign the Pre Nup i would have to go back to my country.

6. Please keep in mind if you do not have a lot of assets you are wasting you time and money.



Also please keep in mind the laws are differnet in all states so you must follow all of the laws in the state where you are getting married.

I believe a pre nup is very important if you are an older man with a younger women and you have children. I also believe that setting differnet amounts for the amount of years you are together is very important. You want to offer her as little as you can for the first 10 years or less....

I wish everyone who has to put together a pre nup the best of luck it is not an easy thing to do but it is very important.


Ray

[Alabamaboy!]

Ray.....how do you determine what is the correct amount to give her if the divorce ends in a particular year.  Is there a rule of thumb to use?  A formula of some sort?  Do you calculate it from your gross or net income?  I am already paying a ton of cash to my ex wife so even though I make good cash now....I could not afford to pay alot if I ever got divorced again.

[Alabamaboy!]

Utopia,

I think in Barranquilla the prices are very fair right now.  I don't know where else you can find a home with over 2,000 square feet, for around $50,000 that is in a city with so many nice people, all the big city things you would ever need, so close to probably the two most important vacation destinations in Colombia (Cartagena and Santa Marta), with a nice airport if you wish to fly back to the States or other parts of Colombia. 

And the fact that I want to live my life.....now....this year.  I do not want to wait forever.  And if the prices drop from $50K to $45K over the next 5 years...so what?  That is not going to make that much difference.

I think the exchange rate is more important than the actual prices of the homes.  I was just there in June and the rate was like COP1650 to one dollar.  Now look at it. It cut the price of the houses drastically.  And no matter what, nobody can tell me they can predict what the future will bring.

[Alabamaboy!]

I think so many people wait too long to start living their dreams.  I am not a very political guy, but when George Bush got elected for the second term I predicted all these bad things were going to happen in the world: stock market crash, housing market crash, bank closures, auto industry crash, that we would be impotent to do anything against other countries such as Iran or whoever since most of the world hates us now, all of these bad things.

When Bush won the presidency again, I decided "f--- it.....I am going to start living nowwww!"  And I am so glad that I did.

So I do not know how much longer the world is going to be the way it is when we can travel freely and things like that.  So I want to enjoy it while I can.  Did you see what happened with the airline tickets during the last year?  Even though they are coming down now....they were through the roof for most of us during the past year compared to previous years.  Who knows what will happen with the prices in the future with oil prices, less people traveling, fewer flights available, etc.

And for me...it is difficult to just sit on the sidelines watching life pass by.  I want to travel there, have parties, cook outs, everything as much as possible.  Especially when I am still relatively young.....41.

[raycjs]

Machine69

There is no real rule of thumb....


Our pre nup is very personal and it also has a lot to do with your net worth.
but here are some examples

0-5 years married $ 20,000.00 and nothing else. this will help you if she is only after you for a visa i truly believe 20k is not going to change your life. you make it one lump sum or payable over 2 years 10k each year....

5-10 years married $ 60,000.00 payable in payments 10k per year for 6 years.....

10-20 years married $ 120,000.00 payable in payment 10k per year for 12 years

20 plus years $ 175,000.00 payable in payments 10k per year for 17.5 years

again it all depends on your net worth and you want all of this to be around 20 to 25 % not the normal 50%

all of the above numbers are based on what you feel her time is worth for helping you as a wife over the period of years.... You also can put in clause that state if she is caught having an affair or some other wording that will hold up in a court of law that she gets less ?


if there is anything else i can help you with just ask

i wish you the best of luck and i want you to know that i believe in marrage and this is all only by opinion but i can tell you i have spent a lot of money making sure my past and present assets are all covered.

Ray

[Alabamaboy!]

Thanks for the info Ray!

[Bob_S]

how do you determine what is the correct amount to give her if the divorce ends in a particular year.  Is there a rule of thumb to use?  A formula of some sort?  Do you calculate it from your gross or net income?

I got some friends here in CA that recently got a divorce, and they said the lawyers said that the general formula is: the gainfully employed spouse provides support to the under-employed spouse sufficient to maintain at least the poverty line for 1 year for every 2 years they were married.  That way, the under-employed spouse has time to train to get the skills to up their employment level and can still have a roof over their head and something to eat.  Mind you, they did not have kids which would have changed things considerably.

[Calipro]

I got some friends here in CA that recently got a divorce, and they said the lawyers said that the general formula is: the gainfully employed spouse provides support to the under-employed spouse sufficient to maintain at least the poverty line for 1 year for every 2 years they were married.  That way, the under-employed spouse has time to train to get the skills to up their employment level and can still have a roof over their head and something to eat.  Mind you, they did not have kids which would have changed things considerably.

Bob

Your formula sounds about right.

But unless you have property in Colombia, get married in Colombia and think you might want to remarry there again then a Colombia Pre-Nup is pointless.

Personally I think a Pre-Nup should reflect what you are comfortable giving a woman that wants to divorce you or who has made you so sick of her that you would like to get away from her.

In Colombia you can write up a Pre-Nup that will make sure she gets zero in case of a divorce.

[Alabamaboy!]

These women have a good scam going......no matter where they are from.....if they marry a gringo, and marry in the US, they have just hit the jackpot.

No matter what happens.  If it turns out good, then good...they will have a wonderful life.  If it turns out bad, they still win.  Incredible.

And for us...it is just the opposite.  Even the guys I know that have beautiful women that seem to be incredibly nice and sweet seem to get tired of them within 5-10 years and would love to be single again. So they either suffer in a relationship they are tired of....or they get divorced thinking "the grass is greener"...but it does not turn out to be true many times.

[papi]

In Colombia you can write up a Pre-Nup that will make sure she gets zero in case of a divorce.

what a great country! I'd be willing to write in that she gets a pair of new sneakers.

[Dave H]

It's really very simple...just do like Guy Ritchie and marry a woman who has more money and/or earning potential than you do! There are plenty of professionals available...but not in the 18-20 year old bracket.

Dave

[Calipro]

These women have a good scam going......no matter where they are from.....if they marry a gringo, and marry in the US, they have just hit the jackpot.

No matter what happens.  If it turns out good, then good...they will have a wonderful life.  If it turns out bad, they still win.  Incredible.

And for us...it is just the opposite.  Even the guys I know that have beautiful women that seem to be incredibly nice and sweet seem to get tired of them within 5-10 years and would love to be single again. So they either suffer in a relationship they are tired of....or they get divorced thinking "the grass is greener"...but it does not turn out to be true many times.

Personally I just can't see complaining about banging a hot chick for 5 or more years even if it ends in a divorce. The trick is setting yourself up so you don't get burned financially.

I can't see how a woman (in her twenties) can really think that spending 4 or 5 of the best years of her life in a dead end relationship is a good deal even if they end up staying in the states. Unless she ends up with a lot of cash in the end.

Just like a guy in his forties can't complain about spending 5 years with a hot chick unless he gets raked over the coals in a divorce.

Just remember you are the one in controll and you can end the game any time you like.

[Alabamaboy!]

Calipro,

I am in control only to a certain degree.  Look at my ex wife...she started out fine....but after four years...after discovering Macy's and Ebay, things were on their way to disaster.  I was working. I could not control her every second of the day.   I could not put a gun to her head to make her cook and take care of my son the way she should have.

So in the end, I was sick of it.  Sick of watching that kind of thing when I was working about 60-70 hours a week.  So I finally divorced her.

But how was she rewarded for her behavior???  A giant divorce settlement that she did not deserve.  I have been divorced more than 2 years, separated another year on top of that.  And she still does not work or do anything. Because the money continues to flow into her household from me. And since I have young children with her...with joint custody, it will be that way for more than 10 more years.

[Dave H]

But how was she rewarded for her behavior???  A giant divorce settlement that she did not deserve.  I have been divorced more than 2 years, separated another year on top of that.  And she still does not work or do anything. Because the money continues to flow into her household from me. And since I have young children with her...with joint custody, it will be that way for more than 10 more years.

He machin,

That really sucks!!! I will save up my strength for the party when the 10 years is up! You should have partied with my brother and me when his youngest turned 18! His ex tried, but failed to get child support until the youngest turned 21.

Dave

[Calipro]

Calipro,

I am in control only to a certain degree.  Look at my ex wife...she started out fine....but after four years...after discovering Macy's and Ebay, things were on their way to disaster.  I was working. I could not control her every second of the day.   I could not put a gun to her head to make her cook and take care of my son the way she should have.

So in the end, I was sick of it.  Sick of watching that kind of thing when I was working about 60-70 hours a week.  So I finally divorced her.

But how was she rewarded for her behavior???  A giant divorce settlement that she did not deserve.  I have been divorced more than 2 years, separated another year on top of that.  And she still does not work or do anything. Because the money continues to flow into her household from me. And since I have young children with her...with joint custody, it will be that way for more than 10 more years.

machin69

I'm sorry to hear that you got hosed. But it is up to you and you alone to make sure it doesn't happen again and I pray to God that you are not thinking that it's all you have to do is just find the right woman this time. You need to take concrete steps to make sure that it can't happen again.