For those of you with experience with Colombianas and Filipinas...

[Gato4Astrid]

This is the reason that class matters in Colombia.  People from the lower classes are often damaged goods and unable to conform to a modern life.

I went to my good friend's wedding in Durban, South Africa in 1995 - just few years after the end of ant-apartheid.  Anyway, during that time, African people lived in either in squatter camps or Township.   Let say, that squatter camps is in Estrato 1 and Township in Estrato 2/3.


They offered these people who lived in squatter camp good homes like the Township, but they prefer living in squatter camp as they got used to it.  They feel more comfortable in them!!!


It is something we do not understand.


In the bottom line, if you live in a very large house, and found your lady from Colombia who lives in Estrato 1 area.  Would she feel comfortable living in a very large house ?

[michaelb]

well i really don't think she will be lifting a 32" Rockwell radial drillpress, i had 1 hell of a time just getting it to where it is now. i don't have a heated shop so my plan is to put it upstairs, but I'm not so sure i can get it up there. maybe a large pulley & winch is in order , hell i don't know that's why it's still in the living room
 
pig

Be sure the floor is strong enough to support it, remember, it will vibrate when you run it.

[robert angel]

Be sure the floor is strong enough to support it, remember, it will vibrate

Piglett,


That same bit of advice will likely apply to the master bedroom as well...[size=78%].[/size]

[Researcher]

     I always saw "lumping" people into categories a disadvantage because you can't always judge a book by it's cover. Saying that women who come from the lower strata are often "damaged goods" is a fallacy. There is no correlation between a person's social status and whether they are marriage material. This mindset seems to come from people who live in developed countries where people have more opportunities for work and education. In these countries it would stand to reason that a person who doesn't try to better themselves either aren't motivated or are lacking in something. In countries like Colombia this simply isn't the case. Many people live in poverty and have no opportunity to better themselves. This is life and reality to them.

   That being said it is better to look at women on an individual basis. The biggest advantage to that is a much bigger dating pool. Thinking a woman is better because of the class she comes from is pretty arrogant in my opinion. Choosing a woman because of her social status isn't going to guarantee a good relationship. Spending time with a woman and using good judgement works far better.

             Researcher

[Ray]

So the question is: if you have been crystal clear with everything, have been patient for years, have done 120% of your part throughout the whole relationship, she refuses to go to counseling, what is the next move?

　
AB, I really think you guys could benefit from professional counseling.
　
I believe you said before that she won’t go to counseling because she said she isn’t crazy. Therefore, it is obvious that she has no idea what marriage counseling is all about.
　
If you really want counseling, then YOU should take the initiative to find a good bilingual MFC and make first contact. Don’t try to convince your wife to attend counseling, but let the counselor contact her privately and explain some things to her. Of course she would need to be here with you, not back in her country.
　
If she still refuses to go, then I guess you will never work things out because you feel you are 120% correct and nothing is likely to ever change.
　
Ray

[Alabamaboy!]

This is the reason that class matters in Colombia.  People from the lower classes are often damaged goods and unable to conform to a modern life.

I don't agree with this statement as a whole. Because I have seen many people from the lower estratos who have been able to change their lives. I saw the brother of my ex GF from BAQ. He came from the same background as my ex, but for some reason he was super modest, hardworking, and went to school to be an architect. And he graduated with this degree last year, as did his girlfriend. His other friends graduated to become doctors, accountants, etc.

For whatever reason my ex gf was not so into working hard or being modest. Most likely because she was smoking hot and cute and probably relied on this to cut corners throughout her life. She hung out with other pretty girls who were not really serious about studying or doing the things necessary to get ahead.

They were both from the same place, but chose to hang out with a different crowd.

[Alabamaboy!]

　
AB, I really think you guys could benefit from professional counseling.
　
I believe you said before that she won’t go to counseling because she said she isn’t crazy. Therefore, it is obvious that she has no idea what marriage counseling is all about.
　
If you really want counseling, then YOU should take the initiative to find a good bilingual MFC and make first contact. Don’t try to convince your wife to attend counseling, but let the counselor contact her privately and explain some things to her. Of course she would need to be here with you, not back in her country.
　
If she still refuses to go, then I guess you will never work things out because you feel you are 120% correct and nothing is likely to ever change.
　
Ray

I have taken the initiative and found a good, bilingual counselor. But I am not going to ask her to contact my wife like that when she said she absolutely does not want to come. This situation is like dealing with a drug addict or something, if they do not want to come, they are not going to do it. My wife is stubborn as a mule. And she will claim that I am harassing her if I pull such a stunt. It definitely will not help the situation.

Why do you think if she refuses to go, then things will never work out? Don't you think that maybe she might think some things over and see that she is the person who is wrong about things and that she needs to mature a little? Or that she sees that her way of things are not getting her anywhere and she better change a bit? Or maybe she will look around the room at the other people sitting with her and that they are 10, 15, 20 years older and their lives are [snip], and maybe she will realize that maybe, just maybe the barrio's ways of dealing with things is not the best approach?

The bottom line is that if she is not willing to cooperate and do her part in the family setting, she should not be in the family. Whether it is our family here, her parents family, or whoever's family she is living with. I would not try to be part of a person's life if I was unwilling to do my part and cooperate.

I did not get married to have a trophy wife. I got married to have a real wife who is willing to do things as a couple and as a family. If I needed a housekeeper or nanny, it would be much cheaper and hassle free to hire one. If I just wanted a sex partner, I would just have casual relationships from time to time and not get married. I got married to have a partner in every sense of the word. And that includes the things that are not so exciting and fun such as raising kids, taking care of the home, getting out of bed at a reasonable time, etc.

[benjio]

In my opinion Bama's inital posts applies mostly to Costena Women. But please don't get me wrong...there are plenty of exceptions along the coast. They are just very difficult to find...especially with the distraction of beauty amongst them all. From my experience women in Central and Southern Colombia are much different, regardless of their economic class. I've only dated Filipinas that were born in the states, but they were both great gals. Very honest...almost brutally, upbeat, not bitter about bad experiences with men in the past, and they could both cook their asses off.

[Alabamaboy!]

In my opinion Bama's inital posts applies mostly to Costena Women. But please don't get me wrong...there are plenty of exceptions along the coast. They are just very difficult to find...especially with the distraction of beauty amongst them all. From my experience women in Central and Southern Colombia are much different, regardless of their economic class. I've only dated Filipinas that were born in the states, but they were both great gals. Very honest...almost brutally, upbeat, not bitter about bad experiences with men in the past, and they could both cook their asses off.

Yes I should have clarified myself that almost all my experience has been in Cali and on the Coast.

[V_Man]

I have taken the initiative and found a good, bilingual counselor. But I am not going to ask her to contact my wife like that when she said she absolutely does not want to come.

AB I agree. Your wife has to want to give it a go.

With respect to this topic. I she her refusal to go to counselling as a major red flag. Major. It does not matter where she comes from. If she is not willing to accept help to resolve relationship issues that are difficult for two people to resolve on their own then this is a major red flag. It does not have to be counselling of course. There may be many sources of help to develop skills to resolve relationship problems. However if the refusal to entertain counselling is part of a pattern then I think you are in big trouble.

Perhaps she believes that you have made it crystal clear that there is your way or the wrong way. In which case she could conclude there is little point in counselling.

Then again perhaps you are right. Perhaps she just needs to grow the $#@*& up and do what you expect her to do.

I'd rather not offer a view on that.

My point is that there needs to be tools to help a relationship and she just dismissed one out of hand that you are willing to try. Red flag.

[Alabamaboy!]

AB I agree. Your wife has to want to give it a go.

With respect to this topic. I she her refusal to go to counselling as a major red flag. Major. It does not matter where she comes from. If she is not willing to accept help to resolve relationship issues that are difficult for two people to resolve on their own then this is a major red flag. It does not have to be counselling of course. There may be many sources of help to develop skills to resolve relationship problems. However if the refusal to entertain counselling is part of a pattern then I think you are in big trouble.

Perhaps she believes that you have made it crystal clear that there is your way or the wrong way. In which case she could conclude there is little point in counselling.

Then again perhaps you are right. Perhaps she just needs to grow the $#@*& up and do what you expect her to do.

I'd rather not offer a view on that.

My point is that there needs to be tools to help a relationship and she just dismissed one out of hand that you are willing to try. Red flag.

I really don't expect her to do much more than even a below average wife  would do. I am not asking for much. I am not asking for an all-star of a wife. And what I am asking for is not some crazy thing I made up out of my head, rather it is normal, universally accepted behavior, here and in Colombia. Things that we both agreed were important.

I think she is just so stubborn that she does not want to hear the truth. It seems like most of the Costenas I have met love to run from reality and the truth. For example they will not have money to pay their electric bill, but will go out and buy new Carnaval shirts for the family. They almost refuse to look at reality and the consequences of bad decisions. So if the counselor tells her that the things she is doing are not cool, she will just ignore it completely.

I even try to explain things this way...I keep in touch with a few Colombiana friends from BAQ...which is totally acceptable to my wife since she does the same thing with a few of her school friends. No problem with that. And I make sure that the friends I have are all at least in a relationship or something so my wife does not freak out about anything. So the friend will be chatting with me and asking me about my wife. I tell her she is back in Colombia. I explain that she is pregnant, she wanted to be spoiled by her mom and sisters, etc, etc. The friend then tells me that is crazy. That she has only been to the States for 3 months and she left a couple days before Christmas??? With a new husband and family?? And that it cost a fortune with all the visa things, travel, etc, but she wasted another huge amount of money to return home again?? So when my wife is telling me that it is normal what she is doing, I tell her "hey, even this person from your hometown, same age, same background, thinks it is totally crazy what you are doing and is disrespectful to me and the kids". She will just refuse to believe it. She just puts her head in the ground and pretends she is right and the rest of the world is wrong. She reminds me of George Bush in that regard.

So then I offer up the idea that maybe she is not ready to be a wife to a gringo here in the States, and she should just stay at home with her family. And I will do my part to support the child and will visit, and also bring the child to stay with me for part of the year when he/she is a  couple years old and can be away from her for that long. She does not like that idea either. She wants to be with me. OK.....

So I say, "you know what, this whole relationship has been a little bit shaky in regards to you following through on your words. So I need to have things clarified between us with a Post-Nuptial agreement. This agreement will clarify exactly what is "sole and separate property" and what is "joint property" so you will understand clearly what you are getting into here. I don't want you to have any confusion. And I need you to sign that agreement as soon as possible if we are going to go any further with this marriage." So she tells me no problem, she will sign it because she is not an interesada and she does not want anything from me that she does not deserve, she just wants to be with me. OK. Great. So I spend the money for my attorney, also for her own attorney who is bilingual and is there for her to answer any questions she might have and to work out anything she might want to change. So she tells me she gets the document translated, has no issues with it, and wants to sign it. I told her at the beginning that the papers need to be notarized, and since she is in Colombia, she would need to take the papers to the Consulate in BAQ to sign in front of an agent there to make them legally binding (the attorney told me that). But she refuses to do it. Says she is too busy. That she is just going to sign them and send them back y ya! I told her they were not valid like that. She said she does not care. She is too busy to do it! Does not feel like doing it. This is from a young woman in the prime of her life who is 4 months pregnant. Not 8 1/2 months pregnant or even 2 months pregnant where she  can cite morning sickness or anything like that. It is simply insane. And how can a person deal with someone like that? And how can you predict such crazy, irrational behavior?

It is like many of these women are living in the clouds or something. They appear to be normal in the way they do things, but when it really comes time to do something important, they completely lose their way.

And it is not just the couple women I have had relationships with there. I hear it a lot from other people that have had the same experiences....gringos and colombianos. And you can see it with the rich ones, poor ones, old ones, younger ones, university graduates, almost everyone there.

But all that being said, I think there are so many women there that a guy can definitely get a good girl if he is lucky and really spends a lot of time with her and studies the whole situation. But there is definitely luck involved because you cannot predict what they will do when they get to the States.

Some women are so glad to not have to share their bed with 2-3 other family members, have privacy, some basic material things that are virtually impossible to have there in Colombia. And some other women from the exact same background will not appreciate anything and will be more comfortable in Colombia gossiping with the neighbors all day on the front porch, complaining about how they have no way to get a job, to find a good man, or to help their families. It is kind of crazy.

[JWR]

Alabama wrote: Why do you think if she refuses to go, then things will never work out? Don't you think that maybe she might think some things over and see that she is the person who is wrong about things and that she needs to mature a little?  Uhhhh no, no, and no...she won't be re-thinking things.
 
Even if she spoke fluent English, and you spoke perfect Spanish, you two will always be speaking a different language.
 
The writing is on the wall here.  Now it's just about you accepting the situation, and not subjecting your existing children to any more craziness.
 

 

[Alabamaboy!]

Alabama wrote: Why do you think if she refuses to go, then things will never work out? Don't you think that maybe she might think some things over and see that she is the person who is wrong about things and that she needs to mature a little?  Uhhhh no, no, and no...she won't be re-thinking things.
 
Even if she spoke fluent English, and you spoke perfect Spanish, you two will always be speaking a different language.
 
The writing is on the wall here.  Now it's just about you accepting the situation, and not subjecting your existing children to any more craziness.

You are correct. I don't respect the way she is thinking right now and handling things. But that does not mean it needs to remain that way. Because the things that I am asking for are soooooooo small. The bar is set sooooo low. It will not take much of a boost to get her up to where she needs to be to get everyone's respect. She has a lot of good attributes as well. But this 10% of the relationship is pretty important.

I would probably not have much hope if it were not for other experiences I have had with Colombians. My business partner is Colombian and he was doing a lot of things which were just simply crazy. So we severed the business relationship after about a year. Well, he suddenly "saw the light" and we gave it another try and for the last 8 years we have been going great. NO problems. He opened his mind a bit, followed along with the program, and it paid off big time for him. He and his family have greatly improved their lives simply because of a couple very simple changes in the way he thought about things. And that guy gets all the respect in the world from me, the community, and his family now. So it is possible.

Also for the fact that I see in my wife some things that could have been said about me before I had my first child. But as soon as I had my first child, it was like a switch was thrown, and everything became crystal clear as what is my mission in life, what things are really important, and what is BS. I have heard other people say similar things. So I think she has a great chance to achieve this level of improved clarity after the birth of the baby. I would hate for her to have that moment of clarity after she has passed the point of no return and then realizes how badly she has destroyed her life.

[Alabamaboy!]

Alabama wrote: Why do you think if she refuses to go, then things will never work out? Don't you think that maybe she might think some things over and see that she is the person who is wrong about things and that she needs to mature a little?  Uhhhh no, no, and no...she won't be re-thinking things.
 
Even if she spoke fluent English, and you spoke perfect Spanish, you two will always be speaking a different language.
 
The writing is on the wall here.  Now it's just about you accepting the situation, and not subjecting your existing children to any more craziness.

Another issue I have is that the situation as it has been has not left any scars at all. Everyone is happy and healthy. My kids are chatting with her. They would like her to come back. But I don't see anyone down because she is not here. My son who is almost 12 says he does not really care, just as long as he and I have time to do things together.

So if for some reason she did not come back, I think the situation might be a little more "crazy" than it would be if she did come back in many regards. First of all, I don't have the time, money, or "ganas" to start a new relationship with a LA gal. And I am not attracted to the women here, thus my rational for going to LA in the first place. So the situation here would be that I would stay single, work my ass off at my job and doing the domestic things in the house, "date" a few locals here. Maybe go to Colombia once in awhile. It is not really a great lifestyle for anyone and not any less "crazy" than being with a wife who I might not see eye to eye with on every single issue. It is a close call though at this point. I don't know anyone who is married who gets along perfectly with their spouse, so I am being realistic in what I am looking for. And hopefully we can get to an acceptable point with this whole situation.

[V_Man]

So she tells me she gets the document translated, has no issues with it, and wants to sign it. I told her at the beginning that the papers need to be notarized, and since she is in Colombia, she would need to take the papers to the Consulate in BAQ to sign in front of an agent there to make them legally binding (the attorney told me that). But she refuses to do it. Says she is too busy. That she is just going to sign them and send them back y ya! I told her they were not valid like that. She said she does not care. She is too busy to do it! Does not feel like doing it. This is from a young woman in the prime of her life who is 4 months pregnant. Not 8 1/2 months pregnant or even 2 months pregnant where she  can cite morning sickness or anything like that. It is simply insane. And how can a person deal with someone like that? And how can you predict such crazy, irrational behavior?

It sounds pretty obvious what would be occuring if she was not pregnant.

This particular issue is simple to deal with. If she doesn't do it in a legally binding way then she isn't comming back to live with you. Problem solved.

It is like many of these women are living in the clouds or something. They appear to be normal in the way they do things, but when it really comes time to do something important, they completely lose their way.

Yes I think you are correct. I think many of them sort of fail to think through the possible consequences of not acting on certain important things. Even when you point out the consequences they fail to grasp it accurately. I've noticed this as well.