Are you in favor of the new immigration bill?

[fathertime]

The subs pay the  "cockroaches" about 8-9 under the table.

They are good at "Supplementing" that income though.  Had copper pipes installed in my house a couple years ago.  Had an outfit come in with a real low bid and they were recommended by a poker buddy who is a plummer.  I used them. When the work began, nobody spoke english.  My daughters had a bucket full of change, approx. 70 dollars.  It turned up missing, I grumbled about it to the whitefaced salesperson to no avail of course.  He probably picked the grunt workers up from the local home depot day labor center.  My only solace is that I have not recommended them since and neither had my poker, plummer buddy.  That's life here in Socal, cheap labor, no accountability, my girls are out 70 dollars...

Fathertime!

[el_ruso]

FT,  the one who fleeced you was Jamie, maybe the girls he introduced to you.  Due to the fact those people are here, and are willing to work very hard for very little makes the level of life here so high.  If you go to Europe for example you will realize how cheap everything here is.  If somehow they are forced to leave, and businesses will indeed be in dire straits: they either will have to pay a lot more and have much higher prices, or close down.  CIR deals with the lack of the realistic guest worker program for years, and it is sad it is being blocked by the demagogues.

Soltero,  the vast majority of those illegals are not rich at all.  Most of them are unskilled and can't get the rates you quoted.  Those individuals probably have been in the industry for quite some time and had a chance to get training.  Further, there are many people who just don't want to work, and due to loopholes there are ways for them not to.  Do you really think that if a guy who speaks English and is a US citizen shows up wherever they hire people to do construction or pick fruit, he would not be hired???  Do you REALLY believe that?  The fact of the matter is that they don't and won't unless the payrate goes through the roof.  Instead of having a real guest worker program the businesses were getting the labor force from among those who jump the fence - at the acquiescence of the gov't.  Unfortunately those people are not counted, screened, regulated, etc.  That's what CIR is designed to do.  Let's hope it passes so that the problem will be fixed.

[william3rd]

Well, guys- I am going to lock this poll up now. The numbers are right about where the American people are.  It was up over two weeks so ample time was given to vote.

My opinion is that you lock down the border, vigorously prosecute employers, provide jail sentences and lifetime bars on immigration benefits for future overstays. Give an amnesty period for illegals to return home without penalty. Accelerate the family preference categories and limit some categories in the future. Then provide a guest worker program that will not permit participation in social security but will require social security withholding as a fee for working here.

Some opinions may vary

[fathertime]

FT,  the one who fleeced you was Jamie, maybe the girls he introduced to you.

Use your head man!  There is a better venue for false, cheapshots than this website. I could retort and seriously degrade you, but I have better judgement then to do that here.

Fathertime!

[soltero]

Soltero,  the vast majority of those illegals are not rich at all.  Most of them are unskilled and can't get the rates you quoted.  Those individuals probably have been in the industry for quite some time and had a chance to get training.  Further, there are many people who just don't want to work, and due to loopholes there are ways for them not to.  Do you really think that if a guy who speaks English and is a US citizen shows up wherever they hire people to do construction or pick fruit, he would not be hired???  Do you REALLY believe that?  The fact of the matter is that they don't and won't unless the payrate goes through the roof.  Instead of having a real guest worker program the businesses were getting the labor force from among those who jump the fence - at the acquiescence of the gov't.  Unfortunately those people are not counted, screened, regulated, etc.  That's what CIR is designed to do.  Let's hope it passes so that the problem will be fixed.

I understand that the vast majority of illegals aliens are not rich. I am not rich either. No, I don't believe that just because a person is a US citizen they are automatically going to get hired especially if those hiring know they can hire someone for less money. My point is there ARE people here that can do the work, and if the illegal alien alternative did not exist, it would still get worked out. I refuse to have sympathy for people who have a perfectly good country leaving to leech off of another instead of fixing their own. I would be more than happy to have a bill passed that will assist the aliens with aid and advisors IF they return home. If we are going to continue to coddle the ilegals as if we actually owe them something, then maybe we need to actually owe them something. Let's annex Mexico and resolve the issue once and for all. I am sure that once our border is with Guatemala and Honduras, The new Mexican-Americans will surely continue what needs to be done to control the new border as they are already while crying foul if someone stubs a toe entering into America by way of the border we currently have.

[mudd]

Let me tell you how it works from my own experiences.  I am a business owner; I have Mexicans who work for me, legal and a few who were illegal. I can always spot the ones who are illegal, with fake SSC and ID. They claim 7 to 9 dependents on their deductions on their checks. Pay the least amount of taxes, and when they have a medical problem, they go to the  local emergency room and get their medical care for free, seen it first hand.  Some of their kids are illegal, depending if they smuggled them in, some were born here, so they are legal by birth, which I think is a very stupid law. Just because you’re born here, should make you legal, if your parents are here illegally.  But the kids who are here illegal, you and I are paying for their free schooling.  35 kids to one teacher, you got to love it.

The ones who are totally illegal, without any fake papers or ID, who work for cash, make about  anywhere from  $ 60 to $ 150 cash per day, construction rate,  depending on their skills and the demand, and most of that money is sent to Mexico, it isn’t spent here in the USA. The only taxes they are paying are sales tax when they go grocery shopping.

Now, about “jobs American don’t want to do,” more like, “can’t afford to do”, if you’re paying taxes and living here legal.  Not many people here in CA can live on  $16 to $25an hour , if your paying taxes, car payment, health insurance, property taxes and  house payment, and if you have  one or  two kids, forget it.  Until they crackdown on companies, businesses and home owners who hire illegal’s, the wage rate will be too low for legal workers to do the job. When they do,  an actual “ living rate” will be obtainable and the phrase  will go from  “ jobs Americans wont do” ,   too   â€œ jobs American can now do and  actually live on” .
 Just my .02$

[Ray]

That's life here in Socal, cheap labor, no accountability, my girls are out 70 dollars...

Illegal Aliens...doing the stealing that Americans won't do.

If anyone here really believes that these Illegal border jumpers are all a bunch of honest, hard-working, respectable, individuals, then you're a bigger fool than I thought. Too many are nothing more than common thieves who will steal anything and everything that isn't nailed down. I've seen it first-hand too many times.

[Ray]

FT,  the one who fleeced you was Jamie, maybe the girls he introduced to you.

HUH?

 

[daytrader]

Mudd sez - Now, about “jobs American don’t want to do,” more like, “can’t afford to do”, if you’re paying taxes and living here legal.  Not many people here in CA can live on  $16 to $25an hour , if your paying taxes, car payment, health insurance, property taxes and  house payment, and if you have  one or  two kids, forget it.

I lived in one of the most expensive areas of North America, the East Bay of San Francisco ...If I advertised for any decent job that paid $16 per hour, I would have dozens of applicants, 30% qualified...If I advertised for $20 per hour I would have hundreds of applicants, 50% qualified...If I advertised for $25 per hour I would have thousands of applicants, 75% qualified in most any blue collar or decent white collar field. 

There is a LARGE pool of employees that 'double up' on housing or rent.  This is the source of these applicants.  If you advertise a job  and require the prospect to be making a mortgage payment, heck I can get hundreds of applicants that would drive from Stockton to San Ramon, CA  -- over 50 miles away and  a hour-plus commute time. 

There are THOUSANDS of law abiding Americans that have lost their construction, landscaping or home remodeling businesses because of ILLEGALS undercutting then.  After paying taxes, insurance, unemployment, self employment tax, the legal Americans can't afford to buy gasoline to start their pick up trucks. 

Illegal immigrants are law breakers.  Nearly 25% of all jailed felons the past couple years are illegals. 

Not to mention that 12 law abiding Americans are murdered or killed DAILY by illegal immigrants via violent crime or DUI's in the USA. 

 

DayTrader

 

[Ray]

Shamnesty dead and stinking…

14 votes short!

A great day for America!

A lousy day for Illegal border jumpers and their handlers.   

Bye Russo…

[Parlay Rey]

Shamnesty dead and stinking…

14 votes short!

A great day for America!

*it is a great day for America, indeed.

[doombug]

Spectacular!

A nice photo of the architect posted on Drudge says it all:



Someone needs an Excedrin. And a new scheme.

[pan de bono]

thank God the amnesty bill is dead! now where is that 700 mile wall we were promised?

[william3rd]

Thanks to the work of a bipartisan coalition of Americans, the Kennedy-Bush immigration bill went down the toilet.

CONGRATULATIONS!!!

[michaelb]

thank God the amnesty bill is dead! now where is that 700 mile wall we were promised?

Well, at least a mile and a half of it is already built, on the Mexican side. They have politely asked us to remove it.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070630/ap_on_re_us/misplaced_barrier_3

[garythfla]

disclaimer: i didnt read any of the previous posts in this thread before i wrote the text below

this is how i look at the whole immigration issue....
yeah the ones that are here ilegally(sp) are breaking the law but realistically speaking we arent going to be able to deport them all and it may be politically incorrect to say this BUT they do work other ethnic groups in america are too educated to do or just refuse to do (like picking oranges here in florida). it will make alot of americans angry but i say if they want to stay let them stay and let them get documented somehow(citizenship or some other option) so they can start paying taxes and paying for the services they do use (like medical care and education). thats my biggest gripe with illegal immigrants pesonally.....they are taking advantage of everything america has to offer but not contributing to it. by "contributing" i mean paying taxes, although you could argue that they contribute in other ways.

once we take care of the issues with the ones that are already here, i totally agree with the people that say we should do more to secure our borders and then more harshly prosecute or whatever the ones that come over here illegally after that. i have actually heard alot of immigrants (including many latinos) that are here legally harshly criticize people that come here illegally.....something to the effect of "we followed the rules and jumped through all the hoops, how come these people are allowed to get away with this",lol.

i dont know if this makes any sense or not, its late here,lol...but thats my 2 cents.

[Jeff S]

No one says we have to deport them all and do without the labor. Give them a 6 month amnesty to return home. Then do sweeps and arrest, fingerprint and blackball from ever returning, any illegals you find. Enforce the labor laws. If an illegal can't get a job, cant participate in social services, they'll go home all on their own (self deport.) Make a true guest worker program for a finite amount of time, like three years, only available in foreign lands (you can't apply here) and enforce it (no families - just workers) Make a guest worker flat income tax - no deductions, no credits. Allow no social services like welfare, disability, even public school, for guest workers. If they lose their job, they go home. That way, we get the labor, they pay their own way taxwise for police, fire, infrastructure, emergency care, etc.

The problem is that we have this "oh well" attitude. "They're already here and we want someone to mow our lawns and wash our cars, so let's let them stay" The part you forget is that they pump out anchor babies that overcrowd the schools, hospitals - they're getting welfare (WIC,) loading up the prisons, stealing identities, and ignoring plenty of city ordinances, all on your and my tax dollars. Now the liberals are handing them voter registration forms and convincing them that no one will check their citizenship if you want to vote, and you get to "marque dos para Ingles."

[michaelb]

If they lose their job, they go home. That way, we get the labor, they pay their own way taxwise for police, fire, infrastructure, emergency care, etc.

Excellent plan.....if your intention is to create an easily exploited slave laborer class......be sure to instruct the now "legitimate" employers in the finer points of inventing excuses to have their workers deported AFTER the crops are in (or the houses built, or the road finished, whatever) but BEFORE they pay them off, just like it was often done in "the good ol' days". 

I agree with a lot of what you said, but the "Lost your job? Too bad, now get out" is a little harsh and too easy for unscrupulous employers to use a a club to cheat honest workers. Now, if they are convicted of a felony or too many misdemonors, that's an excellent reason to throw them out, FOREVER. Yeah, yeah, somebody's going to point out "they already committed a crime just by being here", I'm talking about people who have been "amnestied" (by whatever means the new law winds of being) and/or those who enter legally on the (also as yet undetermined) guest worker program.

Mind you, I'm NOT in favor of EVER giving full citizenship to people who arrived here illegally. Letting them stay as a practical matter because we don't have the resources to "round 'em all up", as some people advocate, is one thing, REWARDING them is an entirely different matter. As for "anchor babies" I strongly favor a constitutional amendment (a simple law won't do it, since the current  method is already part of the Constitution) that says the child's mother must be a US citizen or married to a US citizen both at the time of birth and the time of conception for the child to be a US citizen......."But what if the guy doesn't marry her?"....well, tough! Should have thought of that while she still had her panties on. Gotta draw the line somewhere and I think I'm drawing it more lenient than many would. (BTW, in my perfect world, passing on citizenship would have nothing to do with paying child support, if the father admits paternity and/or a DNA test proves it, he should still be on the hook for that).

[daytrader]

Excellent plan.....if your intention is to create an easily exploited slave laborer class......be sure to instruct the now "legitimate" employers in the finer points of inventing excuses to have their workers deported AFTER the crops are in (or the houses built, or the road finished, whatever) but BEFORE they pay them off, just like it was often done in "the good ol' days".

US farmers have been using imported Mexican farmworkers since I was a little kid.  They would start the year harvesting in Texas and California, pick apples in Oregon, then migrate through the midwest and northern states during the summer and early fall harvesting the midwestern/northern crops, then return to Texas after the fall harvests concluded. 

The migrant citizens would likely live in Texas, the noncitizens would 'self-deport' back to Mexico, et al if they didn't want to continue harvesting the winter crops in the South and Southwest. 

I met Caesar Chavez in the mid-60's when he was organizing farm workers in Ohio, so I'm very familiar with the migrant farm worker concept.  It works.  All we need is a President that upholds his oath of office to enforce existing immigration laws and our borders. 

If the imported workers were given biometric ID cards like the DOD has and paid electronically, with 25% withheld until they lawfully exited the country at the end of their temporary visa stay, this process would aid in 'self-deporting' all the illegals. 

The employers need to post all jobs on a 'careerbuilder.com' website, with American citizens bidding on the jobs first, then if unfilled, a slot is created abroad for a temporary worker opportunity.  Simple.  That means the government won't do it.  If all employers were forced to do online quarterly wage/tax statements only with verified ssn#'s, the magnet for illegals would dry up. 

Give a $10,000 'bounty' for the average citizen to turn in illegal employers and the problem would be solved in 90 days.  Impose a 50% tax on all wire transfers to Mexico without a valid ssn# + drivers license that matches and the overseas remittances would end in about a week after implementation.  Offer a $2,500 bounty for any illegal wire transfers to the average American citizen and the enforcement issue is solved.  No waiting on idiot bureaucrats and liberal immigration judges to try to subvert the clear intent of the laws of the USA. 

How about them apples?

DayTrader

[Jeff S]

...if your intention is to create an easily exploited slave laborer class...

... too easy for unscrupulous employers to use a a club to cheat honest workers.

You've been watching too many Steven Segal movies. I didn't say anything about suspending employment law. The people I know who use illegal labor (and I'm not one of them, though all of my employees are Hispanic immigrants) treat them well and pay them competitively, or they'll lose their good, trained workers.

If they're here only to work then return home - how can they be a slave labor class? Like the Filipina OCWs who sign up to work in Hong Kong as maids and nannies, they know what they're getting into and do it to support their families back home. The choice is to stay in the Philippines and clean houses for 50 cents a day or go to Hong Kong or Singapore and clean houses for $10 a day.

If guest workers want to immigrate here, fine - apply for an immigrant visa like everyone else and wait in line.

[michaelb]

Who? OK, so I'm not the most up to date movie goer, I had to go look him up on IMDB....having done so, I can truthfully state that I have never seen any of his movies. Maybe the real problem is that I've listened to too many Woody Guthrie songs, ha ha. It's good that you don't exploit your workers, no doubt you're an honorable and honest man.....not all small business owners (nor large business managers) are, and it DOES happen, I've seen it happen in the contract programming business to H1B people who were working on the same stuff I was working on.....of course their H1B visas were being misused in the first place to undercut US workers' pay rates, NOT fill a legitimate shortage of qualified workers, but that's another part of the big Gordian Knot problem that years and years of immigration mismanagement has gotten us into.

[michaelb]

Some good points, particularly about the biometric card and electronic payment system. That way, foreign workers who are legitimately approved (and one would assume screened for criminal history, dangerous diseases etc.) could have the chance to work and the assurance of not being cheated out of what they have honestly earned (or to take the opposite view, not hide their earnings from the tax man either). 

Not too sure know about your wire transfer idea...too easy to dodge....it would simply move underground. Yes, I know the money transfer places are supposedly 'regulated'.....I also know that where's there's a demand, there's a product, on the table or under the table. Humorous side note along that line: The US Post Office in Farmers Branch, Texas has a big banner outside, advertising (in Spanish) their service of sending money to Mexico.

Bounties for turning people in? No way, too easy to use as a method of harassing business competitors and/or personal enemies unless there were equally sever plenties for false accusations...and if there were, then of course that would scare off many (if not all) of the honest whistle blowers. No, I don't think paying bounties is a good idea at all.

[doombug]

Here's my three-step solution to immediate deportation:

Step 1: Recruit Peter Ueberroth to organize a massive "Hasta la Vista" parade.

Step 2: Summon every illegal alien to take a polygraph test, and offer a $500 incentive for them to participate. This nationwide commencement shall be known as "Día de la Mentira." If on the test the illegal alien answers "deceptively" on more than two questions, then he must pack his belongings, gather a few milk jugs full of water, and register with parade officials in the city where he lurks.

Step 3: On a set date, the Hasta la Vista parade will depart from all points east, eventually convening on the west coast in that pearl of the Pacific shores--San Diego, California (where Ray can wave to them goodbye ). At this point, the Army Corps of Engineers will blast a hundred-meter wide gap in the border fence for the parade to pass, and then remain behind to reseal it once the last foreign flag has departed.

Some of the polygraph questions:

* Have you ever cut in line at a grocery store?

* Are you using, or have you ever used, a fake Social Security number?

* Do you have, or have you ever used, a fake identity document?

* Have you ever voted in any U.S. election?

* Have you ever received unauthorized social benefits while living in the U.S.?

* Have you ever burned a U.S. flag, or does the site of a burning U.S. flag inspire you?

* Have you ever stolen the property of a U.S. citizen?

* If you operate a vehicle, do you maintain auto insurance?

* If you drive, do you have a valid drivers license issued in your name?

* Have you ever fired upon, thrown stones at, or otherwise assaulted a U.S. border patrol agent?

* Have you ever littered more than your body weight in refuse?

* Have you ever uttered "Death to America!" in any language?

* Do you find American women attractive? (Okay, I admit. This is a trick question.)

* Do you admire the politics of Che or Hugo?

* Do you support the founding of an Aztlan?

On the matter of exploitation--whether here or abroad--we should consider the words of Walter E. Williams:

So many Americans graduate high school and college having learned what to think as opposed to acquiring the tools of critical, independent thinking. Likewise, they have learned little about our nation's history. As such, they fall prey to the rhetoric of political charlatans and quacks. Let's look at a couple of examples.

One of the arguments against international trade is that companies such as Nike and Gap Inc. exploit workers in Third World countries by paying them wages far lower than those that prevail in the U.S. and other developed nations. Are the workers being exploited? It all depends on how you answer the following question: If someone comes along and offers you an opportunity superior to any other that you have, is "exploitation" an appropriate term to describe that offer?

Put more concretely, if a U.S. company pays a Cambodian $3 a day, when his next best opportunity -- digging through trash at a nasty dump -- yields 75 cents a day, has that company made him worse off or better off? If your answer is "better off," how can "exploitation" be an appropriate term to describe the transaction?

You say, "It's exploitation because the worker should have been paid more." I think George Mason University should pay me more. Is it appropriate to use the term "exploitation" to describe my relationship with George Mason University?

Exploiting Ignorance

And this article from Reason magazine:

Want to improve the lives of poor workers in developing countries? Then rush out and buy a pair of Nikes or Levi Strauss jeans, says a new report by the National Bureau of Economic Research.

[...]

[W]hen economists looked at reams of economic data on wages and workers' rights in developing countries, they found that multinationals generally paid more -- often a lot more -- than the wages offered by locally owned companies. The study cites evidence that affiliates of U.S. multinationals "pay a wage premium that ranges from 40 percent in high-income countries to 100 percent, or double the local average wage, in low-income countries."

Vietnamese workers in foreign-owned apparel and footwear factories rank in the top 20 percent of the population by household expenditure. Indonesian workers in Nike subcontractor factories earned $670 per year, compared to the average minimum wage of $134. In Mexico firms that exported more than 80 percent of their output paid wages that were 58 percent to 67 percent higher than wages paid by domestic firms.

Sweatshops Forever. Oppression rasies wages

Peace out, my children.

[daytrader]

Not too sure know about your wire transfer idea...too easy to dodge....it would simply move underground. Yes, I know the money transfer places are supposedly 'regulated'..

Guess you don't know, but all the wire transfers via Western Union, etc are all monitored by the Federal Reserve....it is impossible to be beaten.  None of the wire transfer places will risk prison terms for perjury for accepting/entering false information ie, Drivers license + ssn# + u.s. checking account + thumbprint - all of this is easily verifiable online via the Fed.  Sure, people can submit false id, but that's not the wire transfer agent's fault.  If they do it a second time, they will get caught.   50% tax will work well. 

The IRS even knows when they accept a personal check for tax payment if there are funds available as soon as they scan the check after they open the envelope you sent them.   

About ten years ago I put through a large check from a new commercial paper client that was from  out of state...Then I wired the same amount to my Morgan Stanley brokerage account in NY .   The feds sat on that wire transfer for 2 days scratching their heads figuring out where that $38,000 came from and why I had it. I had the Fed Funds # but it was in LaLa Land for 36 hours.  The Feds can know how many times you sneeze and how many tissues you used (whether it is a domestic or int'l wire) if they want to watch you. 

Once a checking account has $55,000 of deposits from the date the account is opened, mandatory bank reporting alerts the Feds instantly.  The IRS will watch it if your ssn# shows up on their monitoring list.   

Bounties/rewards are used all the time by the Feds for tips on hunting, poaching, land use violations, pollution dumping tips, ATF, DEA.  I heard this suggestion by Newt a few years ago, he wouldn't suggest it unless he knew it would be practical and legal. 

People are generally not aware how the banking and federal agencies work...it's very scary. 

DayTrader

[Jeff S]

Yet another classic post by Doombug!



- Jeff