careful in medellin, from a expat who lives there

[maritime04]

6189 murders/killings in medellin since 2008, according to Qhubo.
 
It may not be really that high, but what do you expect from a country with a history of violence, narco trafficking, and extreme poverty. its the ugly side of colombia to be sure.

[vikingo]

It would be interesting to see a chart depicting homicides in US cities of similar seize to major cities in Colombia to get a true picture about Colombias crime rate. It is common belief though that crime increased significantly in and around Medellín since Uribe left the presidency. What has a large effect on crime in Colombia is the presence of former members of the paramilitary (paracos), common in Antiochía (Medellín), and the presence of former members of the FARC around Cali, people who are most generally fearless and familiar with handling hand guns and who still pocess them in large numbers. While the FARC mainly consists of disgruntled peasants, many paracos with once noble intentions turned over the years into a ruthless gang of cold blooded criminals, surviving by the drug trade and kidnappings, just like the FARC. I can't imagine there are many jobs waiting for them as most have no training or schooling for civilian life of any kind nor do the former FARC have any land to gop back to and farm it, so some of them resort to crime to feed themselfes or their families. Now add to this scenario millions of displaced people, headed for the cities to escape the atrocities of either rebel roup and many of them also turned to crime out of sheer desperation to feed their families. What is needed desperately in this country is a wellfare system and government programs to help the very poor and downtrotten. Maybe when the war with the remaining 9000 FARC is over some day, moneys can be channeled into such government programs, but this country has a long way to go to solve it's problems with crime and poverty.                                                       

[benjio]

It would be interesting to see a chart depicting homicides in US cities of similar seize to major cities in Colombia to get a true picture about Colombias crime rate. It is common belief though that crime increased significantly in and around Medellín since Uribe left the presidency. What has a large effect on crime in Colombia is the presence of former members of the paramilitary (paracos), common in Antiochía (Medellín), and the presence of former members of the FARC around Cali, people who are most generally fearless and familiar with handling hand guns and who still pocess them in large numbers. While the FARC mainly consists of disgruntled peasants, many paracos with once noble intentions turned over the years into a ruthless gang of cold blooded criminals, surviving by the drug trade and kidnappings, just like the FARC. I can't imagine there are many jobs waiting for them as most have no training or schooling for civilian life of any kind nor do the former FARC have any land to gop back to and farm it, so some of them resort to crime to feed themselfes or their families. Now add to this scenario millions of displaced people, headed for the cities to escape the atrocities of either rebel roup and many of them also turned to crime out of sheer desperation to feed their families. What is needed desperately in this country is a wellfare system and government programs to help the very poor and downtrotten. Maybe when the war with the remaining 9000 FARC is over some day, moneys can be channeled into such government programs, but this country has a long way to go to solve it's problems with crime and poverty.                                                       

Vikingo,
 
I'd be very interested in seeing the same statistics. I've never been to Medellin but I've spent significant time in almost every other city in Colombia, and I'm sorry...I've just never felt that unsafe. I've been to a lot of areas and neighborhoods that I've been specifically instructed to stay away from in Colombia, and I've never felt anything but comfortable and welcomed. Although I don't have the numbers to prove it, it's hard for me to believe that a significant percentage of the homicides in Medellin are happening to innocent bystanders. I think a lot of it has to do with drug trafficking, personal vendettas, and people placing themselves in bad situations as previously stated.
 
The neighborhood I live in here in the U.S. on the otherhand is notorious for people being killed for absolutely nothing. The worse stories I've heard out of Colombia still don't compare to the things I've seen here. Women getting high on crack and killing their babies. Multiple Assault Rifles fired on a crowd of people at a high school football game. Entire families being murdered by home invaders, including 3 children under the age of 10. I can personally remember 3 dead bodies being found within a mile from my home within the last year, and I'm sure there were more I'm not recalling. These things don't even make the news half of the time because it's so common where I live. I lost 5 friends to murder before I graduated high school. My high school sweetheart was raped and murdered a few years after we graduated.
 
I think someone's idea of any place being "dangerous" is a relative notion. I'm not sure if anyone on the board currently residing in or has grown up in an area like my neighborhood. What's amazing is there are places in the U.S. that are so much worse than where I live. The first link below is a Wikipedia article about my neighborbood. I personally knew each of the victims in the articles that follow. I actually lost 3 VERY good friends last year between July and September. These crimes all occured within a 10 miles radius of my home. Farbeit from me to claim the U.S. is more dangerous than Colombia, but I'd rather take my chances SOTB anyday.
 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hiram_Clarke,_Houston

http://www.houstontx.gov/police/nr/2006/may/nr050306-2.htm
http://www.khou.com/community/blogs/crime-watch/Crime-Blog-Tips-sought-in-murder-of-19-year-old-Missouri-City-man-102181509.html
http://abclocal.go.com/ktrk/story?section=news/local&id=8265040
http://www.examiner.com/crime-in-houston/boyfriend-girlfriend-both-shot-dead-different-places
http://www.houstontx.gov/police/nr/2008/feb/nr022108-4.htm

http://houstonist.com/2006/12/07/metro_contracto.php

http://www.khou.com/community/blogs/crime-watch/Crime-Blog-Houston-police-seek-suspect-in-shooting-99554734.html

http://www.houstontx.gov/police/nr/2007/feb/nr020907-2.htm
 

[robert angel]

From what I've seen from living in different cities in the USA, 'most' of the murders are committed by the same people, against the same people and usually in the same neighborhoods. They typically involve drugs and/or some perceived 'disrespect' allegedly committed by the party on the wrong end of the gun. Grudges can be longstanding, even multigenerational.


Yes there are cases where people are murdered, even in multiples in neighborhoods, schools and workplaces outside what is typically seen as 'the danger zones' and crime of all sorts can happen anywhere. But I think that the greatest majority of crime, especially violent crime, tends to happen in the same neighborhoods, by people preying on their own people--easy targets.


I have seen a lot of burglaries, vandalism and other defacement of property in very affluent, gated communties, but that's typically done by the teenage offspring of residents there, 'punks' who are looking for prescription drugs, guns and various thrills.
 

In the most rural areas of the west and in suburbs outside of the cities nationwide, you have high rates (by population percentage) of prescription drug abuse as well as methamphetamine addiction, and the demographic most likely to be addicted is white females in their late teens to early thirties. So trying to classify crime, addiction and violence by race, neighborhood or economic status is a far from perfect science.

[maritime04]

The point is Colombia is a dangerous country and one needs to be carefull. It does not mean you can not live there, it just means BE CAREFULL, what i find rather odd is the guys who peddle how safe the country is, and how protected you are in el poblado, and some throw comparisions of apples and oranges just to convience some "horny guy" to buy a over priced condo, GUESS WHAT hes going to buy ANYWAZ!!!!!!!!!!! i have met guys who have been REPEATDLY robbed, drugged, cars stolen, held at gun point. AND THEY ARE STILL THERE!!!!!!! why becuase getting laid is worth the risk.

[mudd]

The point is Colombia is a dangerous country and one needs to be carefull. It does not mean you can not live there, it just means BE CAREFULL, what i find rather odd is the guys who peddle how safe the country is, and how protected you are in el poblado, and some throw comparisions of apples and oranges just to convience some "horny guy" to buy a over priced condo, GUESS WHAT hes going to buy ANYWAZ!!!!!!!!!!! i have met guys who have been REPEATDLY robbed, drugged, cars stolen, held at gun point. AND THEY ARE STILL THERE!!!!!!! why becuase getting laid is worth the risk.

i couldnt have said it better myself 

I'd be very interested in seeing the same statistics. I've never been to Medellin but I've spent significant time in almost every other city in Colombia, and I'm sorry...I've just never felt that unsafe. I've been to a lot of areas and neighborhoods that I've been specifically instructed to stay away from in Colombia, and I've never felt anything but comfortable and welcomed. Although I don't have the numbers to prove it, it's hard for me to believe that a significant percentage of the homicides in Medellin are happening to innocent bystanders. I think a lot of it has to do with drug trafficking, personal vendettas, and people placing themselves in bad situations as previously stated.

medellin is one of those cities i have been to where just " being in the wrong place at the wrong time " get you killed. thats what scares me the most about that city.  random roberies and violence happens everywhere, but in medellin, its extreme and higher than most. Remember the bar shooting in Envigado beginning of the year, 7 people killed because they also " were in the wrong place at the wrong time".  or the parque lleras bombing some years ago, lots of innocient people killed. Sooner or later, it will happen again in parque lleras,  and i just dont want to be one of those guys sitting there at a cafe or walking by when it happens. life is just too short and i piece of tail isnt just that important to me.

[Deseo]

Based on official homicide statistics both Cali (71 murders per 100,000) and Medellin (110 per 100,000) have MUCH higher murder rates  than even the most dangerous cities in the USA.
 
Here are some 2010 homicide rates for large U.S. cities:
 
The Three Biggest U.S. Cities:
New York City (6.4 per 100,000)
Los Angeles (7.6 per 100,000)
Chicago (15.2 per 100,000)
 
The U.S. cities with the highest murder rates:
New Orleans (49.1 per 100,000)
St. Louis (40.5 per 100,000)
Baltimore (34.8 per 100,000)
 
I've only been to Colombia ONCE but I felt pretty safe.  Good to remember to do one's research and stick to the safe areas.  Same advice you'd give to a tourist from overseas visiting the U.S.
 
 
 

[dennislevy]

When I lived in Bogota for two years, I dated women in rough barrios in Suba and Bosa  and if I had not been with them, I couldn t have found a single decent reason to be by myself in those barrios.   

As a gringo, if you re in those kind of neighborhoods, you need a SPONSOR, its usually a novia.

I ve been in a lot of cities and towns WAY off the gringo trail in Colombia....and I stood out, I cant hide my height, my weight or that I m a white man , but I NEVER had a problem, NO ONE ever accosted me.... The key for me was  too live QUIETLY. 

You have to have street smarts to live SOTB, as you would in the US. 

[vikingo]

'During the course of 2011, the National Police has arrested 2486 people accused of murder', this from "El País", April 29, 2011. Four months of the year times 3 is roughly 7500 murderers arrested in 2011 in the entire country.
You could say in some cases the police has the wrong guy, but you could also say that some of these criminals killed more than one person, it should somehow average out. Now the majority of murders remain normally unsolved in Colombia. The usual scenario is a drive-by involving 2 hired killers on a motorcycle (sicarios) or they shoot the victim pulling alongside his car. Then they take off rapidly and before anyone realizes that someone got shot, they are long gone. Keep in mind that they are wearing helmets with dark face shields which are perfectly legal here and often use a stolen bike. They will never be caught, it stands to reason.
These asassinations hardly ever involve a foreigner, unless they stole somebody's girlfriend. Now there are ways to stay out of trouble:
Be careful who you are dating, ask what happened with her last boyfriend and how long ago they broke up.
Never be a witness to a crime, see no evil, hear no evil, speak no evil.
Stay out of very poor barrios, especially at night.
Never for a second take your eyes of your drink and don't accept a drink from a stranger unless you see the bartender pooring it for you.
Never walk the streets intoxicated and don't take just any old taxi that happen to come along, there have been cases when a gunman was hiding in the trunk.
If someone is eagerly trying to make friends with you, be careful and don't follow him or her to their apartment.

[dennislevy]

excellent advice, not much too add except

1. Don t carry anymore money then you need.... for that particular outing-
2. Don t wear ostentatious clothing or jewely .If you re fair skinned, got blonde hair and light eyes, you re wearing designer clothes and or sneakers and you ve got a gold chain arund your neck and a nice wristwatch, the odds of something happening to you just went up.,
3. If you insist on drinking mixed drinks in bars, be careful. Drinking out of previously sealed bottles, (beer, soda) is much safer
4. When you meet a woman for the first time, meet at a place where you feel safe, DON T go to her barrio if you don t know the geography of the city

[JimD]

When you start talking about danger in different cities I don't think overall statistics are too meaningfull until you break them down geographically in those cities. This is equally the case with US cities where for example the high crime statistic for St. Louis comes mostly from  "North St. Louis" which is almost exclusively black. Exlude that area of the city and the statistic drops dramatically. I mean how many people think St. Louis is a notably dangerous city to live in?
.
Take a look at Cali then:
.
The highest homicide rates in Cali from a census in 2005 where in Comuna 20 which had 126 homicides per 100,000 inhabitants (Distrito de Aguablanca), Comuna 7 next door which had 119 (Barrio Alfozo Lopez), Comuna 9 had 100  (Barrio Alameda) followed by Comuna 14 with 91 (includes barrios such as Manuela Beltran). However these are barrios that gringos have absolutely no reason to visit. Some are even places that taxis refuse to go to. Then compare with places that gringos do regularly visit like  Comuna 2 which inludes Chipichape which had 34 and the lowest of all 24 in Comuna 17 which includes Unicentro. If gringos avoid the absolute worst barrios and as mentioned above don't stumble around drunk on Avenida Sexta at three in the morning there's very little likelyhood that anything bad will happen to them in Cali. I can't speak for other cities but can't imagine it's any different.

[vikingo]

Dennis, thanks for adding valueable information and Jim, you hit the nail on the head, knowing the different barrios and which are safe or dangerous is of outmost importance and this applies to any city here just like it does in the States. This is where your date or girlfriend comes handy, they know their city, we usually don't. If you are new in any city ask people at your hotel, make yourself a list, this information is to important to leave it open to errors.
And like the man said, leave your Rolex and gold jewelry in the States, you are just asking for trouble, same goes for expensive shoes or tennis. Try to blend in, Colombian men don't wear bermudas or sandals. Not during the week anyway, but sometimes on weekends. Don't hang a camera around your neck, don't pull out a Blackberry cell phone and start talking in front of people. Get an inexpensive cell phone you use outside. Dont carry any money or a wallet in your back pockets. Use ATM's in major stores, walk around in the store for a while, don't leave immediately. Dont trust the vigilantes ( private armed guards) in stores or banks, they sometimes tip of the armed robbers. Don't trust anybody, you don't know well.

[Researcher]

      All good advice guys.Anyone that travels to another country needs to be aware of their surroundings.I think comparing levels of danger to US cities is of very little use but the example of knowing one's way around is a good one.Being a foreigner will make a person more of a target and if you can't speak the language that raises the danger level even more.

     There are some dangerous places in the US but overall it is a safe place to live.Go to a foreign country where life is cheap, many crimes go unsolved and there is an underfunded and corrupt law enforcement and things change.I remember seeing a story about a woman who moved to a remote area of Mexico.She loved it there until her house was robbed.When she called the police they said they couldn't investigate because they didn't have the money to buy gas to go there.That didn't surprise me at all.


           Researcher

[Deseo]

When you start talking about danger in different cities I don't think overall statistics are too meaningfull until you break them down geographically in those cities. This is equally the case with US cities

Yes, I agree. Knowing what the good areas are and what areas to stay away from greatly increase one's odds of staying safe, be it in Colombia or the U.S.A.

[chameleon]

One thing i picked up from jamie was the observation that the crime stats are worthless in colombia. They're cooked to a certain degree in US cities but there's probably an order of magnitude difference. I'd looked at murder rates and comforted myself with the fact that there were similar stats in US cities, but the reality is that there is so much other crime that just goes unreported that it doesn't come close to painting the whole picture. We're so often focused on the worst crimes, but tons of petty crime never even gets reported because colombians hold the opinion that reporting it is pointless. The situation is very different in the states where people report the tiniest little things that happen to them.


Nothing happened to me on my trip, but I think that something may have happened had I not been vigilant. I'll never know for sure, but Michelle (jamie's translator who was with me at the time), was thinking the same thing as me and she lives there full-time.


I'd read about scopolamine before heading down so I was aware of it. I had michelle with me much of the time but when i was alone i was always vigilant about not leaving drinks alone etc. Some of the ploys in the video may or may not have worked on me. God knows that the next time someone I don't know comes up to me in colombia i'm holding my damned breath and the forcefully exhaling as i turn in the other direction lol.


What startled me most was how easily a person can OD on it. At the end of the day I don't care if i get mugged/robbed and lose a few grand. I do care about ODing because the guy robbing me gives me less than a hundreth of a gram too much or something. That's scary.

[mudd]

One thing i picked up from jamie was the observation that the crime stats are worthless in colombia. They're cooked to a certain degree in US cities but there's probably an order of magnitude difference. I'd looked at murder rates and comforted myself with the fact that there were similar stats in US cities, but the reality is that there is so much other crime that just goes unreported that it doesn't come close to painting the whole picture. We're so often focused on the worst crimes, but tons of petty crime never even gets reported because colombians hold the opinion that reporting it is pointless. The situation is very different in the states where people report the tiniest little things that happen to them.

i guarantee Colombias and Medellin's crime rate is way off the publicized  chart because a majority of it  is never reported. Why you might ask.......  many reasons. fear, retaliation, cops are crooked so why bother, dont want to look stupid, embarrassed, its how life is there, deal with it.   Unlike the US where most crimes are reported because we expect to get results, in colombia they know its a waste of time to report it.


just in my novias family in medellin , i  can think of  4 crimes in the last 2 years that were never reported, 2 minior 2 pretty major crimes. its just life there, life is cheap and they deal with it every day.

[Micky]

Exactly !!

 
And if you give it some thought.  Has there ever been a time when,  in the U.S.,   you have had some crap happen,  you call the cops - "well there is probably nothing we can do about it,  but you can come down, fill out a report,  in triplicate".  That would be the norm here,  on steroids.
 

Micky

[chameleon]

i guarantee Colombias and Medellin's crime rate is way off the publicized  chart because a majority of it  is never reported. Why you might ask.......  many reasons. fear, retaliation, cops are crooked so why bother, dont want to look stupid, embarrassed, its how life is there, deal with it.   Unlike the US where most crimes are reported because we expect to get results, in colombia they know its a waste of time to report it.


just in my novias family in medellin , i  can think of  4 crimes in the last 2 years that were never reported, 2 minior 2 pretty major crimes. its just life there, life is cheap and they deal with it every day.

Pretty much exactly what jaime told me. I actually dated two girls whose BFs had been killed. Do you think the murder rate is way off with other crimes? My view is it's maybe a bit more accurate, at least in the cities, because bodies are a bit hard to ignore. Even if you don't investigate, you at least have to count them.


The thing that made me most nervous was that I'd read about motorcycle robberies at gunpoint occurring frequently in rio and frankly, those guys on bikes with their dark helmets were everywhere. When i went to santa marta from baq one night, we had to go through this tiny village and the streets were packed with people that came right up to the taxi. It looked like a scene out of Mad Max with all the guys on bikes and the shabby surroundings. People were coming right up to the window and I really didn't feel very comfortable because i'm so obviously a gringo.

[JimD]

 I think some here are getting carried away with the notion that crime statistics get “cooked” in Colombia. There are legitimate reasons why crimes don’t show up in statistics. If a crime (like a cel phone getting stolen in the street) isn´t reported to the police how can it appear in the statistics? When it comes to homicides yes there are differences between statistics reported by the police for homicides compared with those reported by hospitals. Why? Because the police report who gets killed in the street. They don’t go by the hospital a week later to see how a wounded victim  is doing:
.
 
     “…el Coronel Luis Eduardo Martínez, comandante del Departamento de Policía Metropolitana de Medellín señalo que “Las cifras de Medicina Legal van a ser siempre diferentes a las de la Policía, porque nosotros nunca vamos a los hospitales a mirar quién llega herido de los municipios y se muere en el centro asistencial. Nosotros nunca vamos a los hospitales a mirar quiénes de los que hieren en la ciudad posteriormente se mueren. Nosotros llevamos el registro de homicidios con lo que hay en la calle, con lo que queda en la calle. Ya Medicina Legal tiene que hacer la necropsia y sumar, cuando llega el herido y muere, de Concordia o del Bajo Cauca”El punto principal es que la existencia de éstas diferencias entre fuentes no necesariamente debe ser reconciliado de entrada, ni tampoco implica que existan “razones perversas” detrás de un mayor o menor registro de homicidios. Como el anterior ejemplo lo demuestra, entender la razón de estas diferencias permite conocer mejor la violencia homicida en Colombia.”
.
http://blog.cerac.org.co/%C2%BFque-hay-detras-de-las-diferencia-de-los-datos-de-homicidios-en-2009
.
At the same time it’s true that there has been major “cooking” but by the military not the police as was the case with the “falsos positivos”.  That occurred under President Alvaro Uribe when military personel killed some civilians and dressed them up as guerrilla in order to be able to show higher FARC death counts. 
.
Colombia really is not the totally alien world  that some gringos like to make out. Anyway as far as danger goes in the time I've been here, as I've said elsewhere I've had two close calls with death and neither had anything to do with a human being.

[Researcher]

      I don't know JimD some gringos walking around there sure do look like they are from another planet.A sure sign of a newbie to SA is a gringo who walks around like he owns the place.As if he has the same freedom and rights as he does in the US.To guys who have alot of experience there the situation is old hat.It is normal to those that live there as well.I remember after a few years of traveling to Colombia a song that described the place well for me was this one:

They're pickin' up the prisoners
And puttin em in a pen
And all she wants to do is dance, dance
Rebels been rebels Since I don't know when
And all she wants to do is dance
Molotov cocktail the local drink
And all she wants to do is dance, dance
They mix em up right In the kitchen sink
And all she wants to do is dance
Crazy people walkin round with blood in their eyes
And all she wants to do is dance, dance, dance
Wild-eyed pistols wavers who ain't afraid to die
And all she wants to do is dance
And make romance
She can't feel the heat
Comin off the street
She wants to party
She wants to get down
All she wants to do is
All she wants to do is dance

 hehehe! All She Wants to do is Dance by Don Henley pretty much nails it, at least for the 90's it did.


     Researcher

[mudd]

my friend in medellin went by my old bldg too talk to a friend who still lives there. guess one of the guards that i used to know got shot last week in a robbery, didnt kill him, but was in the hospital for 4 days." In the  wrong place at the wrong time" , walking down the street from a store when a robber started shooting  when he saw the cops, and just happen to hit him, robber got away 

[V_Man]

Then compare with places that gringos do regularly visit like  Comuna 2 which inludes Chipichape which had 34 and the lowest of all 24 in Comuna 17 which includes Unicentro.

The population of Comuna 17 is 104,000 and the population of Comuna 2 is 103,000. Hence this is just under 24 homicides per 100,000 and 34 per 100,000 respectively. More or less.

In Australia the homicide rate is 1.2 per 100,000 people.
In New Zealand the homicide rate is 1.2 100,000 people and this includes: conspiracy to murder, attempting to procure a murder, accessory after the fact to murder, manslaughter, infanticide, illegal abortion, aiding suicide, capable fatal traffic incidents and industrial accidents causing death.
In both countries most homicides are where the victim was known to the attacker. I.e. relationship violence. E.g. mother kills little daughter.

Now if you were to take away the drug related crime and the domestic crime from the figures quoted for Cali you will still have a risk that this several times higher.
The reality is that a tourist staying away from drugs is unlikely to get killed in Cali. My point is that you need to take a lot more precautions that you would in other countries.

[JimD]

These asassinations hardly ever involve a foreigner, unless they stole somebody's girlfriend.

Of course an exception was Robert Vignola:
http://www.planet-love.com/index.php?topic=1775.0
 
 

[mudd]

from a girl i know in medellin, brother was robbed today by three guys on calle 10 near poblado.


3 guys with knives, just for a phone and little money.

el sali de la universidad[/l]
[/font][/color]

• 
  y 3 hombres lo cojieron con cuchillos

• 
  y le robaron 3000 pesos y su blackberry

• [/l]

[Gato4Astrid]

from a girl i know in medellin, brother was robbed today by three guys on calle 10 near poblado.


3 guys with knives, just for a phone and little money.

el sali de la universidad[/l]
[/font][/color]

• 
  y 3 hombres lo cojieron con cuchillos

• 
  y le robaron 3000 pesos y su blackberry

• [/l]
  [/l][/l]

$1,000 peso each, 50 cent, 30p each !!!! 



[/list]